Seriously thoughtful US/Europe Cultural Divide -- Musings

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Would you leave the army under the control of private corporations and individuals? Well, that's most Europeans' view with healthcare and education (and other subjects)

(I fear someone will tell me the army already is under the control of private corporations)

W.R.T. Army and control, I observe that the Founding Fathers of the US wanted to have it both ways. On the one hand, they certainly thought that providing for the common defense was a legitimate function of government. On the other hand, they felt that a "well regulated militia"* was key to keeping the government in its limited place. The historical record seems clear that the US's FFs were strong believers in a citizen's right -- or even duty -- to shoot back at the government if/when it became intolerable. After all, they'd only recently finished doing exactly that!

And remember that at the time they were writing the guy who got to be Colonel of Militia was the one who could afford to buy the cannon and other "heavy weapons." Or equip a warship, to use a naval example -- an example they certainly considered (look at the "letters of marque and reprisal" clauses in the Constitution).

Xenophon

*Note that common 18th c. usage of the word "regulated" was quite different from current usage.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

I'm curious about something. What do Europeans do if they believe they are not receiving the best care available? Over here, we fuss and grumble and write letters to clinic managers until a problem is solved.

We do exactly the same thing. We have government bodies and complaints procedures when we we're displeased with treatment.

And on the cultural divide, could it be that Europeans are more cynical than their American cousins, speaking generally of course? Less sentimental, perhaps? I'm racking my brains to find anything in European culture that has an equivalent to the "American Dream", which is an inherently hopeful premise.

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

[...] I'm racking my brains to find anything in European culture that has an equivalent to the "American Dream", which is an inherently hopeful premise.

To emigrate to the US? JUST KIDDING!

Now back to the serious discussion.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

To emigrate to the US? JUST KIDDING!

Now back to the serious discussion.

LOL I think the "American Dream" idea is interesting, because all I can find in my culture (UK) is the idea of the "Stiff Upper Lip" or "Keep Your 'ead Down", both inherently pessimistic.

The American Dream says that you can have whatever you want, be whomever you please, that opportunity is there for the taking.

The Stiff Upper Lip mentality is that life is hard, keep it together, don't show what's inside, soldier on.

I think there's something important in those two cultural attitudes that might explain the differences in opinions.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

We do exactly the same thing. We have government bodies and complaints procedures when we we're displeased with treatment.

There's a campaign going at the moment over the deaths at Staffordshire General Hospital.
http://www.curethenhs.co.uk/site/content_about.php

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, that's definitely an area in which the US was a leader.

Well ... Joshua Ben Gamla was praised to introduce a compulsory education in jewish areas about 100 AD. The Aztecs introduced one approx 14th century AD. In parts of Germany it got introduced in 1592 (the first compulsory education for both, girls and boys, worldwide). The parliament of Scotland introduced it somewhere in the 17th century (if I remember correctly, no fun in looking up). Since 1800 (+- 10 years) every part of Germany has governmental paid, compulsory education for both genders (since 183? 8+ years) 185? in the United States is soo very late

[wodin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

A good example is education. Until 1880, education was not compulsory in England, and until 1891 it was not free. I'm sure, however, that today most people would consider it a fundamental duty of the government of a country to provide an educational system, and access to education to be a "right".

One of the ways the USA differs from Europe and much of the rest of the world is that the US has an extra layer of Government. The United States of America is exactly that, and federation of Governmental entities called States, which theoretically have the sovereignty of an independent nation but who have united together for certain functions like the common defense and interstate commerce.

In reality what we have is a constant struggle between state governments and the federal government for control (power) over the population and thus the purse strings.

The layer of government that The USA shares with the rest of the world is the local government, cities, counties, parishes, etc. In most of the country, public education is relegated to local governments and paid for with local taxes. Oversight is given to state and federal bureaucrats, ostensibly to insure “equality” but that’s another issue too.

Get to the point, wodin!

The point is; Hawaii is the only state that public education is funded and managed at the state level, and it is completely out of control. The Department of Education’s budget is a very large fraction of the entire State budget, the Director of the DOE is the only department head that is able to challenge the Governor and prevail. There is an elected School Board which is largely a paper tiger with no teeth. And the quality of education in Hawaii, depending on who does the survey is typically in the lower five or ten in the nation.

Conversely, Hawaii has some of the finest private schools to be found anywhere. One of them has produced the incumbent President of the US, and another provides excellent free primary education to native Hawaiian children.

Get to the point, wodin!

The REAL point is, the more that Governments get involved with service, the lower the quality of that service. Do you REALLY want your health care managed by bureaucrats?

[DixieGal]

MoeJoe: i think you have hit on a basis that needs examining, that's for sure. I maybe had that sort of idea rumbling around in my head and heart, but it never jelled until I read your post.

Maybe because it would never occur to me to categorize us as optimistic and you guys as pessimistic.

Which leads me to another question: How do you all as a group consider yourselves to be weathering the global economic nightmare if you are basically pessimistic? Because we know it's tough out there, but dog gone it, we as an American group know things will change for the better very soon.... and we as individuals plan on winning.

In other words, do you see the economy as a problem or an opportunity?

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by wodin

The REAL point is, the more that Governments get involved with service, the lower the quality of that service. Do you REALLY want your health care managed by bureaucrats?

I think I'll take the bureaucrats over Global-Hyper-Mega-Profit-Corp any day

[Lady Blue]

Originally Posted by nekokami

. . . Let us hypothesize that an education of equal quality for all children could minimize this difference between the starting points of individuals, to somehow create a perfect meritocracy (or at least a closer approximation of it). What I often hear people say is that they don't want to have to pay for the education of other people's children. They want the best for their own children, to make them "able to compete," and though they rarely say so out loud, one gets the sense that if the "other" children don't have as many educational opportunities, so much the better for the kids lucky enough to be born into "good" families . . .

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. And I'm not sure how to ask for clarification in response, so I'll just open my mouth and see what comes out. I'll apologize in advance if it makes no sense.

Sounds like you're talking about the need for children to start out on an equal footing with basic education no matter what their socioeconomic status, but they're not getting that opportunity because some people are saying they don't want to pay for the education of "other" children, only their own. I'm not sure I understand that, if it's indeed what you're saying.

We all in the U.S. pay for basic elementary public education from grades K-thru-12 through our property taxes. Even if we have no children, or are retired and our children are grown, we pay these school district taxes. So, like it or not, we're paying for the education of all the "other" children. I don't understand how, (aside from private schooling) the oppotunity for public education is not there for all.

I'm confused and I'm probably misunderstanding your whole point.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

i think you have hit on a basis that needs examining, that's for sure. I maybe had that sort of idea rumbling around in my head and heart, but it never jelled until I read your post.

Maybe because it would never occur to me to categorize us as optimistic and you guys as pessimistic.

Which leads me to another question: How do you all as a group consider yourselves to be weathering the global economic nightmare if you are basically pessimistic? Because we know it's tough out there, but dog gone it, we as an American group know things will change for the better very soon.... and we as individuals plan on winning.

In other words, do you see the economy as a problem or an opportunity?

That's a tough one. The majority of people I've come across are angry, pissed off, and want something to be done to the bankers (lengthy prison terms or public stockades are the most popular ) I don't think I've come across anybody who would see this as anything but a tragedy. And certainly not anyone who would think of this crisis as an opportunity.

I'm not exaclty sure what you mean by opportunity? Do you mean, profit from the crisis?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

In other words, do you see the economy as a problem or an opportunity?

There are no problems, only opportunities.
Our economy is an insurmountable opportunity.

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

That's a tough one. The majority of people I've come across are angry, pissed off, and want something to be done to the bankers (lengthy prison terms or public stockades are the most popular ) I don't think I've come across anybody who would see this as anything but a tragedy. And certainly not anyone who would think of this crisis as an opportunity.

I'm not exaclty sure what you mean by opportunity? Do you mean, profit from the crisis?

Maybe it is just me? Because I'm a bargain hunter, and now seems like the perfect time to stock up on houses and stocks. You know, buy 'em cheap now and sell 'em high when things turn around.

[Nate the great]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

There's a campaign going at the moment over the deaths at Staffordshire General Hospital.
http://www.curethenhs.co.uk/site/content_about.php

If that had happened in the US, there would be lawsuits. It would cost the hospital millions.

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

There are no problems, only opportunities.
Our economy is an insurmountable opportunity.

Well... yes, as a matter of fact. Sorry to be so sunshiney about it. Now stop being so cute in The Conservatory or they will throw us out.