Is the Amazon Kindle infringing patents?

[Thomas Ryan]

Mr. John Hendricks is a prolific inventor:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...D2=INNM&d=PTXT

7299501 is also very interesting.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=ioW...BAJ&dq=7299501

(note to Google - Inventor Search seems broken google.com/patents)

Lawyer people (real IP-trained attorneys please) - a question - When looking for infringement what is the relationship between the "claims" and the "description". Can descriptions be infringed, or claims, or both or?

Thanks

[Amalthia]

So this patent only applies to DRM ebook delivery?

[Daithi]

Earlier I said, "I don't think an electronic book reader that receives the electonic books over the phone network is obvious." to which Shaggy replied,

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This patent covers a lot more than that, it has 171 claims. It covers many distribution channels for DRM ebooks (kiosks, internet, wireless, cable, device to device, publisher direct, etc.), way beyond just "over the phone network".

Simply because their patent is broad and covers many different scenarios doesn't invalidate it. In fact, the patent was granted. All I'm saying is that the "narrower claims," which apply to Amazon and deal with encrypted ebooks sent to a reader via a phone network, don't appear obvious to me. My guess is that Amazon has something to worry about here, and damages for patent infringement are really nasty.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Simply because their patent is broad and covers many different scenarios doesn't invalidate it. In fact, the patent was granted. All I'm saying is that the "narrower claims," which apply to Amazon and deal with encrypted ebooks sent to a reader via a phone network, don't appear obvious to me. My guess is that Amazon has something to worry about here, and damages for patent infringement are really nasty.

It looks to me like they took something which already had prior art "distribution of encrypted ebooks" and applied it to as many different distribution methods that they could possibly think of, without really innovating anything new. A "phone network" is just another communications path in a long list of possibilities that could be used.

[Thomas Ryan]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This patent covers a lot more than that, it has 171 claims. It covers many distribution channels for DRM ebooks (kiosks, internet, wireless, cable, device to device, publisher direct, etc.), way beyond just "over the phone network".

As someone on slashdot said, this patent is not trying to protect an invention, it's trying to corner a market.

I'm not an attorney, but out of curiosity I read through the claims and traced out the tree.

Whether it's "non-obvious" or not, or prior art exists or not, the 815 patent comprehensively covers a wide variety of "secure" distribution systems. For example, in one path of claims, it uses public/private keys and appropriate handshaking.

Here is the ultimate irony - Kindle's DRM is not secure (as shown by mobideDRM).

Kindle's implementation might "read on" (I've been googling) 815, if Amazon had implemented a more secure scheme. Things came close in claim 63 which adds a header concept similar to the one exposed by kindlefix.py, but then claim 63 drivels off into an "electronic home book system" (This is coming from a TV company).

The closest pathway to match Kindle is probably claim #'s 1,2,24,25 & 26, but then the chain seems to end, and if you step back - this chain of claims is incredibly "broad" (which may not matter in court, but common sense says Discovery will likely lose one way or another)

[Daithi]

This may be true (in response to Shaggy). However, when ebooks first came out the way you got books onto them was to plug them into a computer and download the books. So a company in the cable TV industry comes up with an idea to use the media they have expertise in to provide an innovative means of delivering the content (i.e. through cable TV). When designing their patent they realize they were thinking too small and decide that their invention is really about "providing encypted ebooks on demand" as opposed to downloading to a computer and then to the reader. When apply for their patent they list several different mechanisms for delivering the content to the reader.

Now the bottom line is that they were granted the patent. Secondly, Amazon's business model seems to violate several of the granted claims of the patent. Thirdly, even if a judge now rules that the general claim -- "providing encypted ebooks on demand" is "obvious" and should not have been granted (which is not a given), the narrower claim, that applies to Amazon, "delivering encrypted ebooks sent to a reader via a phone network" may still be upheld. Lastly, Amazon has something to worry about.

[igorsk]

AFAIR the Rocket Ebook Reader had a built-in modem and could download books over a phone line.

[RWood]

In the late 1970s were were distributing our user manuals over a combination of computer dedicated backbone communications network and phone lines to deliver the books to the users who could then view them on their VT-100 screens or print them out on their terminals, Diabalos, or high speed line printers. The files were stored on DEC PDP-10 computers and the network was controlled by DEC PDP-8 and RSTS-11 machines.

While the files themselves were not encrypted, they were protected in that not everyone could get to them. Additionally, it required a username and password to get to the area to request the file. Sometimes it also required file-level passwords but then it was an all-or-nothing situation rather than as this patent works, page-by-page.

[nrapallo]

Originally Posted by igorsk

AFAIR the Rocket Ebook Reader had a built-in modem and could download books over a phone line.

The Rocket's successor, REB 1100, could do that, but the original Rocket eBook was limited to a serial port attached to a computer. It could also use an infrared port, but I think it was rarely employed.

Our wiki has some specifications (Rocket eBook, REB 1100, Softbook Reader and REB 1200) but there's more info in this old archive:

Rocket eBook (Monochrome) specs - CONNECTIONS: Serial port/Infrared port (IrDA 1.0)
REB 1100 (Monochrome) specs - CONNECTIONS: Modem (33.6 Kbps v.34)/USB 1.1/Infrared port (IrDA 1.0)

Softbook (Grayscale) specs - CONNECTIONS: Modem (33.6 Kbps v.34) only
REB 1200 (Color) specs - CONNECTIONS: Modem (56 Kbps v.90)/Ethernet (RJ45)

All these pre-date the Discovery Communications patent filing...

[Sydney's Mom]

Originally Posted by crackedlens

I seem to remember a few years ago patents were being issued for tax-planning methods. And that taxpayers would be required to pay royalties to use the tax strategies covered by the patent.

I think congress subsequently changed the rules concerning tax planning patents.

So I guess a patent for a ebook delivery system is not so far fetched.

Actually, they are still issuing them. We got someone in Congress to introduce legislation, but it went nowhere. So, the next time you do some tax planning, prepare to pay a royalty! If your lawyer doesn't charge one, maybe he/she is not using the latest and greatest!

[RWood]

Even the PSION from the mid 1990s had a modem for downloading all sorts of stuff (including ebooks.) In fact, they had their own special format that is still supported by BookDesigner and there are a few titles in PSION format available in the MobileRead free download area.

[Thomas Ryan]

Originally Posted by nrapallo

The Rocket's successor, REB 1100, could do that, but the original Rocket eBook was limited to a serial port attached to a computer. It could also use an infrared port, but I think it was rarely employed.

Our wiki has some specifications (Rocket eBook, REB 1100, Softbook Reader and REB 1200) but there's more info in this old archive:

All these pre-date the Discovery Communications patent filing...

I think the patent under discussion is about DRM and distribution over the Internet and/or another broadcast system. In this context the serial port connected to a computer may be irrelevant. (professional legal opinion needed)

[Thomas Ryan]

Originally Posted by RWood

Even the PSION from the mid 1990s had a modem for downloading all sorts of stuff (including ebooks.) In fact, they had their own special format that is still supported by BookDesigner and there are a few titles in PSION format available in the MobileRead free download area.

In terms of the 815 patent - what DRM, or more broadly encryption decryption schemes were used? If they match (non-legal term) the patent, then the patent challenge may be nonenforceable due to prior art, otherwise, Psion is probably irrelevant. I don't have an opinion here, I am only trying to understand your reasoning process. E.G. - Psion existed - so what?

[Slow_hand]

Originally Posted by Dave Berk

I don't understand patents nowadays. How can something so simple and obvious and so generic be patentable?

Word. When corporations like Monsanto can patent life itself, who can understand patents?

[kevindorsey]

Originally Posted by Slow_hand

Word. When corporations like Monsanto can patent life itself, who can understand patents?

Patents are easily exploitable when our "big brother" needs to help himself.