Differences Tolino & Kobo

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Caveat: My Tolino Shine 2 is not the most recent model so it's possible that newer Tolinos have more or different features.

The differences I notice most are:

1. The Clara has more gradations of font size and also more line spacing and font choices, as well as the ability to change the weight of the font. Some people here have reported that it's not difficult to add new fonts to Tolinos if you are not happy with the preinstalled fonts.

Yep, this (in my opinion) is the one feature where the Tolino needs improvement the most. I'm finding that I like smaller fonts now (probably because I'm using eReaders with higher resolutions), but the font size I really like is not available using my Constantia font on the Tolino. So I find myself reading with a bigger font than I would really like because the next size down is too small. It's a bigger problem when I've been reading on the PocketBook 615, because it has about the perfect size for Constantia (for me, 10 point) and three times as many font size choices (24 instead of 8, the PocketBook goes from 6 point to 30 point). Both the PocketBook and Tolino take custom fonts... so does the Kobo (sorry for losing track). I use Constantia on about everything.

(I've added a screen grab image to show what 10 pt. Constantia looks like on the PocketBook 615.)

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Strictly, the tolino can download books with Adobe DRM from the appropriate servers. This means they can download books from the Ovrdrive library, but, it can also download books from stores that use this. I'm pretty sure I have downloaded a book from the Kobo store in this way.


You have forgotten that Kobo still supports the RMSDK for reading epubs. They have not changed the page numbering in that. Only for kepubs. For epubs, the page numbering is the same as on a tolino.

People keep saying "use epub", but my primary use of the Kobo is to read synced library books and I cannot choose to get those as epubs.

Originally Posted by rcentros

Yep, this (in my opinion) is the one feature where the Tolino needs improvement the most. I'm finding that I like smaller fonts now (probably because I'm using eReaders with higher resolutions), but the font size I really like is not available using my Constantia font on the Tolino. So I find myself reading with a bigger font than I would really like because the next size down is too small. It's a bigger problem when I've been reading on the PocketBook 615, because it has about the perfect size for Constantia (for me, 10 point) and three times as many font size choices (24 instead of 8, the PocketBook goes from 6 point to 30 point). Both the PocketBook and Tolino take custom fonts... so does the Kobo (sorry for losing tract). I use Constantia on about everything.

(I've added a screen grab image to show what 10 pt. Constantia looks like on the PocketBook 615.)

I wish e-readers would let us specify a numerical point size. This would take care of my issues with the Kobo page numbering too - if I could set all my books to 10 pt (or whatever number is comfortable for me) then seeing how many screens are left would mean something, and all my books would be comparable. As it is, the available font sizes don't always seem to be the same from book to book, and if I change the font up or down by one size - whatever random sizes those may be - the page (screen) count for the book can go up or down by 50 or more pages.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by PeterT

I give up. Of course.you cannot download anything from Kobo including library books. If you're paranoid enough not to register why on earth would you want to borrow traceable library books.

I'm just trying to point out some of the downsides of not properly registering. Or as I call it, paranoid registering.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I wish e-readers would let us specify a numerical point size. This would take care of my issues with the Kobo page numbering too - if I could set all my books to 10 pt (or whatever number is comfortable for me) then seeing how many screens are left would mean something, and all my books would be comparable. As it is, the available font sizes don't always seem to be the same from book to book, and if I change the font up or down by one size - whatever random sizes those may be - the page (screen) count for the book can go up or down by 50 or more pages.

I have seen too many eBooks that use small as the font size for the body font. If I am not mistaken, small is 90% of the default 1em. I've also seen some eBooks made with Adobe InDesign have an off body font size like 1.04. It's because if you don't get things 100% accurate in InDesign, you get wonky numbers.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I wish e-readers would let us specify a numerical point size. This would take care of my issues with the Kobo page numbering too - if I could set all my books to 10 pt (or whatever number is comfortable for me) then seeing how many screens are left would mean something, and all my books would be comparable. As it is, the available font sizes don't always seem to be the same from book to book, and if I change the font up or down by one size - whatever random sizes those may be - the page (screen) count for the book can go up or down by 50 or more pages.

Don't forget that the CSS can and does mess with font sizes. Even if you assign a numerical point size unless you want that point size to override the CSS, the font size can vary both inside a book and from book to book. Let's not get into the can of worms that comes up when you notice that different fonts will not be exactly the same size on screen if your ebook has multiple embedded fonts such as one recent horrible example which had 6 embedded fonts with a total of 12 font files.

And I may be misunderstanding you but if I am using Adobe's synthetic page numbers or Kobo's page per screen, I would still see xxx of yyy for the page number. So 139 pages of 158 or 248 of 282 or 88% give me pretty much the same information. if I change the font size in a kepub, I might see the display change from 248 of 282 to 211 of 239 but unless you are only paying attention to the first number and not the ratio between the two, it's still the same amount left.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Don't forget that the CSS can and does mess with font sizes. Even if you assign a numerical point size unless you want that point size to override the CSS, the font size can vary both inside a book and from book to book. Let's not get into the can of worms that comes up when you notice that different fonts will not be exactly the same size on screen if your ebook has multiple embedded fonts such as one recent horrible example which had 6 embedded fonts with a total of 12 font files.

I don't recall which firmware version I tried this with, but using px or pt for the font size didn't work with ePub. I have not tried this with 4.20.14622.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Don't forget that the CSS can and does mess with font sizes. Even if you assign a numerical point size unless you want that point size to override the CSS, the font size can vary both inside a book and from book to book. Let's not get into the can of worms that comes up when you notice that different fonts will not be exactly the same size on screen if your ebook has multiple embedded fonts such as one recent horrible example which had 6 embedded fonts with a total of 12 font files.

And I may be misunderstanding you but if I am using Adobe's synthetic page numbers or Kobo's page per screen, I would still see xxx of yyy for the page number. So 139 pages of 158 or 248 of 282 or 88% give me pretty much the same information. if I change the font size in a kepub, I might see the display change from 248 of 282 to 211 of 239 but unless you are only paying attention to the first number and not the ratio between the two, it's still the same amount left.

My frustration is with not being able to compare the length of one book to another. With ADE numbers all books are based on the same standard. With the screen numbers, unless you can manage to set your font exactly the same size every time it's harder to compare.

Some people in the long Kobo thread pointed out that word count would be a better, more consistent system. I expect I'd be OK with that once I got used to it.

I hope somewhere in the middle of all our sidetracks about registration privacy and page numbering swimon got some useful info......

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

People keep saying "use epub", but my primary use of the Kobo is to read synced library books and I cannot choose to get those as epubs.

Were did I say you should "use epubs"? I was pointing out that your blanket statement that Kobo only uses per-screen page numbering was not true. The full-book page counting method has only changed for kepubs, nothing else.

But, why can't you use epubs for you library books? They come from Overdrive, so you can download them using ADE and add them to the device. Yes, more steps, but, if the Adobe page numbering is important to you, then you can do it.

But, if the point is to get a relative length of the books, there are other sources for page or word counts. Goodreads, Kobo and Amazon show them. Some non-English have them as well. And, in any case, if you open the book and change the font settings to your preferred ones, the page count shown is comparable to any other kepub opened on the same sized device with the same settings.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Yet, somehow this is not easier than the work flows I've seen in this forum and online? Open up your Tolino and make a copy of the SD card? Resize the system partition to have space to install apps? Have fun with ADB, twrp, et alia? Remembering to clean out the tmp folder? We would seem to have different definitions of easier. And lest we forget, SD cards are becoming a thing of the past so no more easy storage space upgrades.

Yes, we have different definitions of simple, especially when such nonsense is not necessary

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Were did I say you should "use epubs"? I was pointing out that your blanket statement that Kobo only uses per-screen page numbering was not true. The full-book page counting method has only changed for kepubs, nothing else.

But, why can't you use epubs for you library books? They come from Overdrive, so you can download them using ADE and add them to the device. Yes, more steps, but, if the Adobe page numbering is important to you, then you can do it.

But, if the point is to get a relative length of the books, there are other sources for page or word counts. Goodreads, Kobo and Amazon show them. Some non-English have them as well. And, in any case, if you open the book and change the font settings to your preferred ones, the page count shown is comparable to any other kepub opened on the same sized device with the same settings.

The main reason I bought the Kobo in the first place was to have a reader that could get library books directly after my old Sony lost that ability. If I wanted to sideload I could have just kept using the Sony. And at the time I bought the Kobo it was still using ADE numbers.

One advantage of the ADE numbers over screen counts (or paper books) was that book length could be compared no matter the font size, line spacing, etc.

I do set fonts to a similar size in every book I read but I can never be sure it's exactly the same as the previous book. And changing the font size up or down by even one increment can change the screen/page count by 50 + pages.

Of course this is all a very first-world problem..... The only reason I brought it up in this thread is in case it's important to someone considering Kobo vs Tolino. Probably lots of people don't care at all and wish we'd stop talking about it

[4691mls]

I guess one thing someone considering Kobo vs Tolino should consider is that Kobo does issue firmware updates that may make changes you do or don't like, and the only way to avoid them is by not syncing the reader.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

The main reason I bought the Kobo in the first place was to have a reader that could get library books directly after my old Sony lost that ability. If I wanted to sideload I could have just kept using the Sony. And at the time I bought the Kobo it was still using ADE numbers.

Sorry, but that is another mistake. Kobo never use the Adobe page counting method for kepubs. Their calculation was based on 320 words per page. In my experience, that gave a page count at east 25% higher than the Adobe page count for the same book.

One advantage of the ADE numbers over screen counts (or paper books) was that book length could be compared no matter the font size, line spacing, etc.

And, it is very easy to screw up those page counts. The algorithm is based on the compressed size of the internal files it's not hard to produce a valid book that gives interesting page count. Having said that, I do use it when calculating the page count in calibre. As you say, it is a useful comparison. But, it would make more sense to drop it and use the word count. I need to train myself in understanding how long a 100,000 word book is.

[4691mls]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Sorry, but that is another mistake. Kobo never use the Adobe page counting method for kepubs. Their calculation was based on 320 words per page. In my experience, that gave a page count at east 25% higher than the Adobe page count for the same book.


And, it is very easy to screw up those page counts. The algorithm is based on the compressed size of the internal files it's not hard to produce a valid book that gives interesting page count. Having said that, I do use it when calculating the page count in calibre. As you say, it is a useful comparison. But, it would make more sense to drop it and use the word count. I need to train myself in understanding how long a 100,000 word book is.

Thought I'd read somewhere that it was ADE pages - guess that was wrong.

Yes, if they would list word count that would be a more reliable method across all e-readers once we got used to it.

[Peripathetic]

For the typical user (who gets an e-reader to read books and not as an end in itself), depending on where in the world they're located, one device is likely going to be about 30% more expensive than the other, so regardless of whatever little differences exist between the two it's probably best to choose on price, especially as these things are already not great value for money (my guess is the BOM adds up to less than $10 excluding the E Ink screen).

For those who like to customize things, Tolino is arguably better, as it can be readily made to run just about any Android application, which gives access to the whole "ecosystem." For this reason, there also isn't much point, in my opinion, in debating software differences between the two: if you don't like the stock reader application on the Tolino, you can just use any of the third-party ePub viewers out there instead (Librera is my favorite as of now, although I don't know how it handles E Ink screens; CoolReader is always a safe bet).

For people who are privacy-conscious, the EU, and Germany in particular, have stronger privacy protections, so Tolino is less likely to attempt some shenanigans with regard to this (not that I'm aware of any issues with Kobo in this aspect).

Comparing the Tolino Shine 3 and Kobo Clara HD specifically, it also seems (although I haven't tried it) that the Tolino could be made to run pure Linux and Kobo software on it, while it would be much more difficult, if not downright impossible, to run Android on the Clara HD.

On the other hand, pure Linux should be faster than Android and on top of that the Clara HD has a marginally better CPU but I'm not sure if this is noticeable in actual usage.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Peripathetic

Comparing the Tolino Shine 3 and Kobo Clara HD specifically, it also seems (although I haven't tried it) that the Tolino could be made to run pure Linux and Kobo software on it, while it would be much more difficult, if not downright impossible, to run Android on the Clara HD.

On the other hand, pure Linux should be faster than Android and on top of that the Clara HD has a marginally better CPU but I'm not sure if this is noticeable in actual usage.

Given the similarity of the hardware between the Clara HD and the Shine 3 (the only really difference I can see is the SLL CPU in the Clara HD), it would not be that great a challenge getting either one to run the other's OS if you were working from the source and since Kobo owns Tolino, I suspect their developers have access to both. As for the supporting software that runs on that OS? I can't even guess as to how difficult moving those to a different OS would be.

Of course, getting an up to date Android version running on either would be more of a challenge. Looking at my Android tablet running 8.1, most of the apps I run need Android 6 as a bare minimum.

As for the effect of the SLL CPU? Looking at the Aura E2 v1 and v2 devices, it's hard to see any performance differences between the two.

As for the renderer used? On my Kobo, I can choose between RMSDK, ACCESS (builtin) or KOReader and Plato. Since I seldom read any format other the epub, KOReader's support for formats such as FB2 are not of any concern. And my opinion of most of the Android epub renderers? If the app default settings are not capable of putting text on the screen following the epub's stylesheets and inline styles, it's crap.