Just Curious about old ebook formats

[sjfan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sorry, but that Wiki is pure BS!

Then ignore Wiki. It's a well-known fallacy. If you prefer a more academic take, it's a sub-category of Ad-hoc Rescue, as is discussed here: http://www.iep.utm.edu/fallacy/#NoTrueScotsman

[barryem]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

The e-book format using the .pdb extension was basically a simplified version of HTML (used simple tags but no paragraph tags, you could separate the paragraphs with hard-space indents or a blank line) that allowed formatting such as bold and italic. It also allowed links within the e-book. You could markup the text in a text editor and use a program provided by Palm to convert it into a .pdb file for loading on your Palm OS PDA. Palm also provided a program that allowed you to edit the text file and it would insert the formatting codes for you and then make the .pdb ebook.

One limitation was that you could not specify the typeface for the e-book. With Palm ereaders, you would have the fonts (typeface and size) already loaded on your PDA and you would choose which one you wanted.

One of the main reasons for the development of the ebook format for Palm OS PDAs is that there was a 4K limit for notes, which was not practical for e-book. The .pdb ebook format allowed for long ebooks.

I suspect you're describing one of the formats used in some ereader app on the Palm. I'm certain you aren't describing the pdb format per se. Pdb didn't specify a format. It was simply the Palm Data Format. There was a specification for the structure of the file, headers, etc, but not for the data it contained.

Barry

[dwig]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

The e-book format using the .pdb extension was basically a simplified version of HTML ...

Wrong.

One, as barryem correctly said, PDB was the Palm Database Format and merely specified the file structure (size of "header" data, size of data blocks, ...). It did not specify what the stored data was used for or how it was used.

Two, the AportisDOC (aka PalmDOC, PeanutDOC, ...) that was one of the ebook formats that used PDB file structure was in no way decended from HTML (HyperText Markup Language). It was, like HTML, a "markup language", but the markup did not resemble that used my HTML. Instead, it was related to earlier markup schemes used in early electronic typesetting and document production. It's true that the AportisDOC/PalmDOC was very popular for a few years, but it wasn't the first and was never the only ebook format that used the PDB file structure.

There were some ebook formats in the PalmOS era that were derived from HTML. Some of those (e.g. MobiPocket, ...) used the compiled PRC datastructure which allowed the inclusion of images.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by dwig

Wrong.

One, as barryem correctly said, PDB was the Palm Database Format and merely specified the file structure (size of "header" data, size of data blocks, ...). It did not specify what the stored data was used for or how it was used.

Two, the AportisDOC (aka PalmDOC, PeanutDOC, ...) that was one of the ebook formats that used PDB file structure was in no way decended from HTML (HyperText Markup Language). It was, like HTML, a "markup language", but the markup did not resemble that used my HTML. Instead, it was related to earlier markup schemes used in early electronic typesetting and document production. It's true that the AportisDOC/PalmDOC was very popular for a few years, but it wasn't the first and was never the only ebook format that used the PDB file structure.

There were some ebook formats in the PalmOS era that were derived from HTML. Some of those (e.g. MobiPocket, ...) used the compiled PRC datastructure which allowed the inclusion of images.

I was going by my experience marking up ebooks for my Palm OS PDA (using a text editor and then converting it for loading) for the Palm Reader. To me, the markup for ebooks bore a similarity to HTML (in a way, it could have also had a similarity to RTF). I know that a .pdb file could basically be anything, depending on what it actually contained but I was thinking of the way the ebook format was done and stored within a .pdb file.

[barryem]

I also made up a lot of pdb books for my Palm and they were all from text files. I don't recall which Palm apps I read with now but they handled these files just fine, reflowing and all. The program I used in later days, once I started using Windows, was DocReader, which was a Windows reading program as well as a converter to and from pdb. It could only read pdb files that were made from text files as I recall. I'm not really sure about that last part.

Before Windows, in the DOS days, I used some other program for converting and I don't recall what it was. It might even be something I wrote myself. I wrote a lot of my own tools in those days. Whatever it was it took plain text files and converted them to pdb files that could be read on the Palm with whatever apps I was using.

About all I remember about those apps was that they scrolled, I wasn't interested in apps that paged, and they read the pdb files I made.

Barry

[bgalbrecht]

Nobody has mentioned the Plucker format, which converted an html document into something viewable offline on the PalmOS devices. I had most of the Baen Free Library converted over to Plucker, and it was my preferred reading app on my Palms. It also used the .pdb extension.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by dwig

I strongly disagree with the first phrase in #2 and hold that everyone who feels the ebook must mimic paper books are idiots stuck in the past. Printers, like Gutenberg, started with that same mindset and were quickly proven wrong. Printed books changed away from slavishly mimicking the hand written and illuminated books that preceded them for good reasons. Typography improved massively over the years.

Keeping similar structure is fine and in most cases a good thing. It can be done adequately in plain text or at least markup text. I do agree that those formats that specify a "page" and loose reflowable text are "documents" and at best stand on the extreme edge of what could be considered an "ebook".

Well, I'm not looking to maintain a layout that is a perfect translation from a printed book. I do want all the things that (normally) make up a paper book: Front matter, back matter, cover, blurb, page breaks in the correct places. Yes, you can do it somewhat, with plain text and/or markup, but a dedicated ebook format is much better at it.

[barryem]

To me a book is a collection of printed words organized for reading and an ebook is simply one form of a book. I think even magazines could be considered books although they're a very different form of book.

Curious, I just looked up the etymology of "book" and it's thought that it's initial meaning was "tree", referring to birch trees in particular, since the early runes were printed on birch bark. Interestingly, the word "library" comes from a word meaning the inner bark of trees.

Anyway I doubt there's any kind of official dividing line saying what is and what isn't a book so we'll probably never agree on this. To make things easier I'll just declare that plain text is an ebook and that settles that.

Barry

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by duke313131

Hello, I'm having issues with sending the ebooks to my kindle via email. I use a mac book, any advice. The email always fails. I'm lost......

Why can't you even bother to check the replies you've got in the other places where you posted your question (and your visitor messages) before you spam the next thread?

[Frenzie]

Originally Posted by barryem

To me a book is a collection of printed words organized for reading and an ebook is simply one form of a book. I think even magazines could be considered books although they're a very different form of book.

I concur with that. At its simplest a book is a text of sufficient length, let's say at least 50 pages. But I'd generally be inclined to exclude periodicals and serials, if only for that very reason.

[duke313131]

Do you have an answer?

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by duke313131

Do you have an answer?

Please see https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=294127

[Richwood]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I did not list text as it's not an eBook format. Technically PDF isn't as well, but since some think so, I listed it.

At least PDF and both plain text (ASCII text) and RTF are still supported by many ebook readers and Amazon supports converting them to more modern Kindle format via emailing a file to the Kindle as an attachment with "convert" in the subject line. Same for MS Word file formats per what I read. Did any reader use RTF as it's primary format? I have a word processor which uses it as it's primary format.

A Sony PRS-505 I recently bought did not even support Epub until I updated the firmware to the last version.

[Richwood]

I am kind of pragmatic as I figure that if a non photo file can be side loaded to an ebook reader directly or transferred via email and end up in a readable format in the ebook reader, then it is an ebook file format. Using the Kindle email feature with the "convert" subject line allows a number of file types to be sent including Word files and RTFs which typically do not have cover art or other ebook metadata. They still end up as readable files.

[Richwood]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I did not list text as it's not an eBook format. Technically PDF isn't as well, but since some think so, I listed it.

At least PDF and both plain text (ASCII text) and RTF are still supported by many ebook readers and Amazon supports converting them to more modern Kindle format via emailing a file to the Kindle as an attachment with "convert" in the subject line. Same for MS Word file formats per what I read. Did any reader use RTF as it's primary format? I have a word processor which uses it as it's primary format.

A Sony PRS-505 I recently bought did not even support Epub until I updated the firmware to the last version.