Getting back to paper books...

[GreenMonkey]

Hardcovers for authors I love

Ebooks for everything else.

Rarely grab a paperback if it's cheap, but very rarely these days. Don't mind one from the library though.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by barryem

Ebooks are still new enough that we don't really know what effect they're going to have on reading and writing and publishing. Everyone (including me) keeps trying to figure that out. But it's still very early days.

Historically writers have let publishers worry about the money end of things and they've just focused on the writing. The qualities that make a good artist don't always make a good business man. Not that an author can't be a good businessman, but they shouldn't have to be. A lot of writers aren't but that never mattered a lot in the past. I think it matters more today, because of ebooks and self publishing. The better businessman is as likely to succeed as the better writer. That might not be a good thing for readers.

On the other hand, the long tail might make new authors less important in the future. How many books is enough?

Barry

I think if you substitute the word agent for publisher, in the worry about money sentence, you would have it right. I also think that you have it exactly right in that a lot of good authors have neither the skills nor the desire to be a one source shop. I do think that is one reasons that publishers won't go away, though I do think that we will see a lot of smaller specialty publishers rather than the mega publishers we have now.

Business models change on a regular basis. Way back when I started reading, most authors primary revenue source were magazines rather than books. Sometime in the late 60's and early 70's, mass market paperback books became much more popular and books became more important, then passed magazines as a revenue source. Some of the older writers have seen a lot of change in the business models over the span of their writing career.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Decent as in some extra bucks in your pocket on a regular basis. My guitar teacher use to get royalty checks every quarter for various recording work he did. No it didn't let him go out and buy a new car every year, but it generally was the difference between living paycheck to paycheck and having a bit of a cushion.

Of course, you get into the debate of who a midlister is as well. I tend to think that a midlister is someone who sells enough books that they don't need a day job, but not enough to be set for life. If you never sold all that many copies on the first printing, odds are pretty good that you aren't going to sell many backlist books. Authors who write 3 or 4 books, but none of them sell well aren't really what I'm talking about.

You may be thinking more of best selling authors--those who have one or more books that made various best selling lists with their "first" printing and sold enough to have a second or third print.

From AC Crispin's blog:

Whereas Joan Midlister, who’s got several books under her belt but has never quite stepped over the line into mass popularity, is a much too well-known quantity. Perhaps her books sell steadily but not in spectacular numbers. Perhaps her readership is slowly dwindling. Either way, Joan Midlister is constantly in peril of getting the heave-ho from her publisher--which means there’s now a slot for A. Newbie.

(This is the real crapshoot, folks. It’s no more difficult these days to get a first novel published than it ever has been. What’s hard is to sustain a career.)

From David B Coe:

I bring this up because lately I have been feeling deeply frustrated by this business and my precarious-as-always place in it. I’m a mid-lister. I’m not one of fantasy/science fiction’s big names. I’m too old to be an up-and-comer, still too inexperienced to be considered an old master. My books don’t debut on bestseller lists, and believe me when I tell you that I don’t make a lot of money doing this. I have a kid who’s about to start college and another who’s about to start high school, and I am feeling that lack of earning power more acutely than ever. I’ve just had a great big, milestone, mortality-reminding birthday, and I am all too aware that my window of opportunity for breaking into the ranks of big-name, bestselling authors is starting to close.

Some have day jobs, some don't. Most midlisters are not making a lot of money and that means the money that comes in later isn't much either. Many midlisters feel enormous pressure to get to best seller or get dropped (and they do get dropped. They sometimes have to write under a different name to try and establish a better sales record.)

As they say: It's a tough market--and even making it to the best seller list once is no guarantee. To make an income--any kind of income--you have to continue to be visible, continue to sell books and find ways to stay in front of the audience. Just "being in print" or still available helps--but it doesn't necessarily mean an author's books will sell.

[49Kat]

Originally Posted by Witty Username

...
I also find that reading fiction on paper hurts my finger now as I first tap, then jab more forcefully at the book to turn the page.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by cfrizz

Also totally true. I now have 1478 books on my pc, ereader, phones, mp3 player, and tablet. If I had that many books in my apt., there would be no room for me.

Ereading got me BACK into reading after nearly a 10 year absence from buying and reading books that I had trouble seeing and storing.

For those years, I read fan fiction on my pc by copying the stories into MS Word and adjusting the font to the size that was right for me. Then saving them to my pc.

Oh yeah, and thanks to Calibre, I have a good chunk of those fan fics converted into epubs and also on my readers!

I used to convert fan fics to kindle format via Mobipocket creator before I learned how to make them in Calibre. It's a lot faster and neater.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

You may be thinking more of best selling authors--those who have one or more books that made various best selling lists with their "first" printing and sold enough to have a second or third print.

From AC Crispin's blog:



From David B Coe:




Some have day jobs, some don't. Most midlisters are not making a lot of money and that means the money that comes in later isn't much either. Many midlisters feel enormous pressure to get to best seller or get dropped (and they do get dropped. They sometimes have to write under a different name to try and establish a better sales record.)

As they say: It's a tough market--and even making it to the best seller list once is no guarantee. To make an income--any kind of income--you have to continue to be visible, continue to sell books and find ways to stay in front of the audience. Just "being in print" or still available helps--but it doesn't necessarily mean an author's books will sell.

I suspect that mid-lister is a definition that it is difficult to get agreement about. Certainly some mid-listers have had one or two books that hit the best selling lists, though not most of them. IMPO, the vast majority of authors never really hit the mid-list status.

For the purposes of this discussion, perhaps the viability of generating money from an author's backlist should be the cut off point. If an author's books have never generated enough sales to warrant a second printing, then discussion of backlist sales is more of a matter of philosophy than practicality.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I suspect that mid-lister is a definition that it is difficult to get agreement about. Certainly some mid-listers have had one or two books that hit the best selling lists, though not most of them. IMPO, the vast majority of authors never really hit the mid-list status.

For the purposes of this discussion, perhaps the viability of generating money from an author's backlist should be the cut off point. If an author's books have never generated enough sales to warrant a second printing, then discussion of backlist sales is more of a matter of philosophy than practicality.

True on the backlist. And just because an ebook remains "forever in print" doesn't mean it will make money either. Writing styles and popular genres change. The Potter books made fantasy mainstream for a while. Mystery is overtaking romance as the number one selling genre. Even popular books still net an author a very small amount per sale (whether trad or self-published) and in order to be a decent income they have to sell month over month. It's always a challenge in a world with many alternatives!

[barryem]

The point isn't whether backlist books make you rich, it's that if someone sells a used copy of an ebook you wrote it increases the chance of selling your backlist ebooks. It won't increase your chance to make money from your out of print paper books. And that's a reason that authors of ebooks should encourage the sale of used ones.

I doubt this is really going anywhere. Publishers have strong lobbies and they think in terms of paper books, not ebooks. I'd like to see sale of used ebooks become common but I don't really expect it to. I think it would benefit authors but not publishers and publishers serve their stockholders, not authors.

I probably should mention my qualifications for pontificating as I do about the publishing business. Unfortunately I don't have any. But that never stopped me from having opinions.

Barry

[BearMountainBooks]

I do realize that however a reader finds a book it can lead to additional sales. However, I do not agree that ebooks should be "resold" as used. Many of them are so cheap in the original form, I think it benefits writers to encourage readers to buy the books new--it really is important from a data standpoint, from an income standpoint and even a morale standpoint. While I know that not all authors want to care about the business end, I do value knowing which books are being bought the most. Reviews also tell me which are being read the most. If an ebook is sold used, it may someday lead to another sale for me, but I still lose some of the data and I definitely lose the morale boost that comes with sales. And a used book sale may not happen until later down the line when I've already decided it's not worth writing another book in a particular series because of low sales. One of the main reader benefits to "used" is a low price--but a lot of ebooks already offer that type of pricing and even trad publisher take advantage of pricing by providing lower pricing or the occasional drop in price of older books. The used model in ebooks can do far more harm than good. Cutting the author out is never a good answer because most of us need the income and the data (whether it comes via the publisher or not).

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I do realize that however a reader finds a book it can lead to additional sales. However, I do not agree that ebooks should be "resold" as used. Many of them are so cheap in the original form, I think it benefits writers to encourage readers to buy the books new--it really is important from a data standpoint, from an income standpoint and even a morale standpoint. While I know that not all authors want to care about the business end, I do value knowing which books are being bought the most. Reviews also tell me which are being read the most. If an ebook is sold used, it may someday lead to another sale for me, but I still lose some of the data and I definitely lose the morale boost that comes with sales. And a used book sale may not happen until later down the line when I've already decided it's not worth writing another book in a particular series because of low sales. One of the main reader benefits to "used" is a low price--but a lot of ebooks already offer that type of pricing and even trad publisher take advantage of pricing by providing lower pricing or the occasional drop in price of older books. The used model in ebooks can do far more harm than good. Cutting the author out is never a good answer because most of us need the income and the data (whether it comes via the publisher or not).

My philosophy on buying books is that I only buy out of print books used. If I like an author, then I want that writer to keep writing. The best way that I can work towards that goal is to buy their books in a manner that ensures they get money from it. I have quite a few books where I bought the hardback when it first came out, then the ebook later and finally the audiobook. There are some Baen bundles where I bought the bundle with the ebook in it, the hardback and eventually the audiobook when it became available.

I will say that I rarely if ever buy dead tree books anymore, for a number of reasons. But I will still buy both the ebook and the audiobook and I don't mind paying hardback prices to get it when it first comes out. I realize that not everyone is in a position to do that, but I've had way too many authors that I liked give up writing because they couldn't make a living at it. Good writers are hard to come by.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I will say that I rarely if ever buy dead tree books anymore, for a number of reasons. But I will still buy both the ebook and the audiobook and I don't mind paying hardback prices to get it when it first comes out. I realize that not everyone is in a position to do that, but I've had way too many authors that I liked give up writing because they couldn't make a living at it. Good writers are hard to come by.

Truth. I know a number of authors whose work I loved who walked away. Some of them by choice and some because their publisher decided they weren't profitable enough. And if a publisher drops an author, that author usually can't continue the series on her own (The publisher won't allow it.)

Great piece by Julie Hyzy explaining just some of what goes on when it comes to a series (a very popular midlist series) and trying and failing to make money at it: http://juliehyzy.blogspot.com/2015/1...od-things.html

[barryem]

Your arguments are explanations of why not allowing me to buy a used ebook benefits you. You acknowledge that there might be some small benefit to me if I could buy them used and then you sort of dismiss that. Of course my arguments are similarly about why buying used books benefits me and I acknowledge your benefit from preventing that but I dismiss that. We're a couple of greedy guys.

Anyway I think we can agree that we won't get anywhere discussing whether benefitting me is more important than benefitting you. Also, the relative size of those benefits really isn't germaine. So I suggest we try discussing the moral and ethical aspects of the thing. That'll be more interesting and give us a chance to leave greed out of it.

I think I should be able to sell my used ebooks because I bought them and they're mine and the situation is essentially the same, different in only small ways, to selling used paper books, which has already been decided, at least legally. I do realize that the TOS usually say something about me buying a license to read a book and not the book itself. That's a religious distinction. You sell books. I buy books. The format doesn't affect that.

Yes it's true that I could cheat and keep a copy. But I'm a pretty honest guy and I think most people are pretty honest most of the time. And we can prove that by the fact that authors sell any books at all in these days when they're so easily found on the internet and so easily shared.

But even if people would cheat, so what! We don't stop people from driving because some drink.

Please give me one moral or ethical reason for not allowing me to buy or sell used ebooks in our free enterprise, capitalist society.

Barry

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by barryem

Please give me one moral or ethical reason for not allowing me to buy or sell used ebooks in our free enterprise, capitalist society.

Barry

I wouldn't mind seeing used ebooks sold, but it would have to be done with the help of the original vendor if you want to be able to transfer the DRM key to the new owner. This is technically possible, but since the publishers don't want it, I really don't see it ever being implemented. Selling someone a cracked version of an ebook so they don't need the key will probably never be legal, since you can always keep the original for yourself and resell it as many times as you want. Even if the key transfer is implemented, there is no real way to prove that you no longer have the ebook for yourself. You may have cracked it, or still have it installed on an ereader under the old key. So, I can't see any way of allowing the selling of used ebooks unless there was a truly effective and draconian way of controlling whether someone still could read an ebook, and I wouldn't want that to ever be the case.

[BearMountainBooks]

I wouldn't mind used books being sold so long as the author/publisher got a cut. Selling the used items could easily put some of them out of business. You are honest and some others are. But some people would forget they had sold a book and sell it again. Some would sell it again and again because they need the money until they couldn't sell it. Some people would pirate the books, having never bought a single copy, and find a way to sell it. All of these copies that don't pay the author/publisher/producer hurt the author's potential income stream.

Is there a moral or ethical reason to not allow reselling? I don't know. If laws forbid it, then it would be unethical and illegal. If the laws allow it, then it would only be a kindness if people didn't resell--not really an ethical or moral issue. The arts have often been partially supported by generous patrons because there often isn't enough commercial interest to support art. This is as it ever was.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I wouldn't mind used books being sold so long as the author/publisher got a cut. Selling the used items could easily put some of them out of business. You are honest and some others are. But some people would forget they had sold a book and sell it again. Some would sell it again and again because they need the money until they couldn't sell it. Some people would pirate the books, having never bought a single copy, and find a way to sell it. All of these copies that don't pay the author/publisher/producer hurt the author's potential income stream.

Is there a moral or ethical reason to not allow reselling? I don't know. If laws forbid it, then it would be unethical and illegal. If the laws allow it, then it would only be a kindness if people didn't resell--not really an ethical or moral issue. The arts have often been partially supported by generous patrons because there often isn't enough commercial interest to support art. This is as it ever was.

Some podcasters are going to a patron model. In general, the ethical/moral framework is there is no such thing as a free lunch. If someone can't make money creating a product, they won't create the product.

To a certain extent, the used book model was as much in response to books going out of print as it was a way to save money. I would suggest that perhaps the subscription model, might replace the used book model when it comes to ebooks. If you only read a book once and don't want to pay the full price for a book, then the subscription model ought to work.