Can't eBooks be beautiful if they're not designed?

[rkomar]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Sorry, but that's not true. Most kinds of ugly need to be edited before the Reader can display them well. Some can display ugly better than others, but i you really want to get rid of ugly, you'll need to edit the eBook.

I don't see how anything you said makes what I said untrue. I didn't claim that current software could turn anything anyone found ugly into something nice. My claim is that it is some help to many people, and they would be annoyed if they lost it.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Doonge

Wow it's even better!

Are there some problem you encounter with this?

OK, I'm impressed. This does indeed fix a problem I was having in a way that is standards compliant and doesn't adversely affect other things.

Thanks.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by dwig

Also, good pbook design requires using a specific font so why doesn't ebook design need the same requirement.

[snip]

Pbook designs don't convert to ebooks well using any automated software. Such conversions are only a starting place. The designs need to be altered by an skilled designer to fit the abilities of the ebook formats and the reality of the available readers hardware and software.

I completely agree that ebooks need designing just as much as pbooks.

I disagree that ebooks should rely on a specific font for the body text.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by meeera

When I'm reading books like novels, I just want the "design" to get the hell out of my way. An in-theme, discreet scene separator graphic or chapter header is fine, but otherwise, just write competent, basic markup.

I totally second that feeling...
However, what is really annoying is that within these specifications, there's so much going on. I like that the Kindle has very few adjustment options and generally equalizes and harmonizes layout, yet the books are not stripped of enough of their formatting and even with store-bought books, you get all kinds of different line spacings, margin settings, font size levels etc and you can only react to them in very limited ways (and this then totally messes up the settings for other books). iBooks is a bit better in that regard, but when you come across a book that forces its very unconventional formatting, you are even more lost (because all you can adjust are font sizes and types).
Recently I have come to appreciate a modded Kobo for reading because it allows override of many atrocious design decisions, but even there, you have to suffer things like huge lines between paragraphs (instead of small spaces and/or slight indentations) and last lines of paragraphs ending on the next page (which, in combination with exaggerated paragraph spacing does indeed look terrible)...
I totally get that most people do not care about design (but often think of “decorum” instead of the more general “design”) and just want to get lost in the words... I am the same, but in my case (and this is not because I am overly aware), when I turn the page to see it begin with only a couple of words and then a huge blank space leading up to the next paragraph, this really kills my flow because I quite “materially” lose connection to the previously written.
I see that for light fiction read in a very schematic way for general plot, this might not matter, but if, like some here claim, you really only care about the “words”, proper design does facilitate that...

[JSWolf]

As I see it, we have eBook formatting that can be all over the place. We have no paragraph spacing, a little paragraph spacing, and a lot of paragraph spacing. We have full justified and left justified. We have embedded fonts that are too light for use on an eInk screen. We have margins all over the place. We have differing line spacing. Font sizes vary all over the place. Chapter headings that start way too far down the screen. I've seen 14% 7 20% used and that's just stupid to do that. Oh and stop with the simulated blockquotes that use numbers like 5% for left/right margins. And, stop making text that's offset a smaller size. The problem is that we don't get a good consistent look.

For example, Kobo Readers have controls to adjust margins, line height, font size, and fonts. So give us no margins, no line height unless needed, and no embedded font if it is not good on an eInk screen. Let us use the controls at our disposal.

Also for a good look, full justified, default font size for the main body of the book, no paragraph spaces, and start chapters near the top of the screen.

In most cases, eBooks are east to format. So please do it right, it's not rocket science.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

As I see it, we have eBook formatting that can be all over the place. We have no paragraph spacing, a little paragraph spacing, and a lot of paragraph spacing. We have full justified and left justified. We have embedded fonts that are too light for use on an eInk screen. We have margins all over the place. We have differing line spacing. Font sizes vary all over the place. Chapter headings that start way too far down the screen. I've seen 14% 7 20% used and that's just stupid to do that. Oh and stop with the simulated blockquotes that use numbers like 5% for left/right margins. And, stop making text that's offset a smaller size. The problem is that we don't get a good consistent look.

But exactly the same is true of paper books, Jon. It would be very boring if all the books in the world looked exactly the same.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem is that we don't get a good consistent look.

I'd say the problem there is inconsistent markup. With consistent markup you could set your preferences and someone else could use other preferences, and the books would just work.

In some respects current ebook formats, based on HTML/CSS, are too flexible.

But I'm with Harry - I like to have a bit of design at the start of chapters. And at places like scene breaks.

[GrannyGrump]

Just to beat the Line-Height horse some more, I keep seeing it quoted from the Kindle publishing guidelines (and read it myself in their pdf manual) that Kindles will not honor "less than 120% or 1.2em". So epub readers probably honor that, but then converting to mobi/azw3 might not look so perfect.

Or have they changed their minds again? ...

[crich70]

I think the idea of 'beautiful' books is a bit silly. I mean sure you want to read a book that has an attractive cover and whose pages are well laid out, but when I pick up a book I'm more concerned with either 1. information (if reading a non-fiction book) or 2. being entertained by the story (fiction). While illuminated manuscripts are attractive it also adds to cost and can detract from the content. Telling a story or imparting information is the main intent of a book whether paper or e-ink. If the appearance of the book is more important to the author or publisher than the content then they will start losing customers fast.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I'd say the problem there is inconsistent markup. With consistent markup you could set your preferences and someone else could use other preferences, and the books would just work.

In some respects current ebook formats, based on HTML/CSS, are too flexible.

But I'm with Harry - I like to have a bit of design at the start of chapters. And at places like scene breaks.

I don't mind some design at chapter headers and section breaks. But I do mind a major waste of screen space space by starting the chapter at 14% down (or some other silly %).

I like your idea of consistent markup. It would work very well. Just drop in your choice of CSs and you are good to go.

I don't think most publishers care about how the eBooks look. They farm them out to some company that uses awful templates to design with or they do it in house with people who have no clue what they are doing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by GrannyGrump

Just to beat the Line-Height horse some more, I keep seeing it quoted from the Kindle publishing guidelines (and read it myself in their pdf manual) that Kindles will not honor "less than 120% or 1.2em". So epub readers probably honor that, but then converting to mobi/azw3 might not look so perfect.

Or have they changed their minds again? ...

Most ePub readers do respect line-height.

[Mousewaffle]

Let's not forget that ebooks are a work in progress, not a finished, polished technology.

To borrow a metaphor from biology, all technologies mutate. Some of those mutations don't contribute to the survival of the species, and they die out. Other do, and they become hard-wired into the DNA of the technology and contribute to its evolution. Ebooks are still evolving.

I also find an interesting, more direct parallel in the evolution of paperback books. In the 1930s when modern paperbacks were first introduced as a cheap, more portable alternative to the hardback, publishers made them small by using maximum type on minimum paper. Margins were tiny. Typography was unimaginative. To make them cheap, not a whole lot was spent on design, and the materials used were cheap and impermanent. Most readers thought the trade-off was unacceptable and stayed with hardbacks. The popularity of the Armed Services Editions in WWII — really cheaply produced, ugly paperbacks — showed that people could grow to like reading best-sellers and great literature in a small, non-permanent format. Publishers began paying more attention to making paperbacks with style and quality materials. As a result, the paperback evolved to the point that design, formatting and sales focus on the paperback and modern hardbacks are basically the glued-not-sewn paperback put between board covers.

Today's most sophisticated e-readers may bear no resemblance to what we'll be using in 10 years. Remember: Twenty-five years ago the mobile phone was brick-sized handset umbilically attached to a ten-pound battery pack. And if you dropped the word "Amazon" into a conversation, everybody's first thought was Xena, Warrior Princess.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Mousewaffle

Today's most sophisticated e-readers may bear no resemblance to what we'll be using in 10 years.

Current eReaders bear a remarkable resemblance to the first E-Ink ereaders of 8-9 years ago....

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Mousewaffle

<snip>
Today's most sophisticated e-readers may bear no resemblance to what we'll be using in 10 years. Remember: Twenty-five years ago the mobile phone was brick-sized handset umbilically attached to a ten-pound battery pack. And if you dropped the word "Amazon" into a conversation, everybody's first thought was Xena, Warrior Princess.

I'd have thought of Wonder Woman, or a certain river .

Going along with your analogy (which I snipped from the quote as it should be the post directly above this one), ebooks are due for reform now. They went through a period of relative obscurity where few people picked them up, and have at this point captured a noticeable percentage of the market (I am not arguing that they are taking over the market).

[Apache]

I do not see a book when I read so when I think of a beautiful book it is what the words become with the help of my brain.
Apache