Blatantly political rant

[pshrynk]

Economics is actually the best force for change that we have ever come up with. And that is coming from a yellow dog Democrat, dyed in the wool liberal. If you make it economically worthwhile to do something, people will do it. The only power that government has that works is to guide economics. They don't do it well, but they do that better than anything else they have tried.

[slayda]

As for land...

I'll take it. Thanks!

Steve, you take Texas, I prefer Alabama.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by slayda

Steve, you take Texas, I prefer Alabama.

There's no disputing taste. Bon Apetit.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

Economics is actually the best force for change that we have ever come up with. And that is coming from a yellow dog Democrat, dyed in the wool liberal. If you make it economically worthwhile to do something, people will do it. The only power that government has that works is to guide economics. They don't do it well, but they do that better than anything else they have tried.

But for the economics to work, you have to let go, with only a touch here, a nudge there. Too many liberals want to help and can't take their hands off enough to let the market do it's job. This isn't to say that there should be some regulations, but only a little here and there, and look closely for the unexpected consequences, and admit when something is causing more unexpected problems than it's saving in original problems, you need to get rid of it....

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

But for the economics to work, you have to let go, with only a touch here, a nudge there. Too many liberals want to help and can't take their hands off enough to let the market do it's job. This isn't to say that there should be some regulations, but only a little here and there, and look closely for the unexpected consequences, and admit when something is causing more unexpected problems than it's saving in original problems, you need to get rid of it....

Absolutely! The last need for great big nudges was the New Deal and that was over done. My liberal leanings are toward the "It ain't hurting no one, leave it go!" liberalism and the "Keep your hands of the tiller" economics approach.

[nekokami]

Okiedokie. I love the free market. So we get rid of the subsidies to the oil companies and the nuclear power companies, and we require that they fully fund in escrow the resources needed to clean up their own waste, and that gets included in the energy costs, as passed along down the line.

For example, nuclear waste is currently projected to be toxic for what, 30,000 years? I'll settle for an endowment to monitor the waste, keep people away from it, check for leaks, etc. for 30,000 years. (Never mind that this is longer than we've had agriculture. We'll just let that pass for now.) If new technological breakthroughs appear that reduce the risk or even make the waste valuable for other purposes, the companies can have their endowment back.

Same with coal mining-- reforestation built into the cost of the coal. Fossil fuel plants and vehicles need to either be carbon-free or include offset credits in their operations.

With this kind of system, I see no problem with the free market. Energy companies and consumers will have plenty of incentives to find their own lower-impact solutions, because the true costs of the energy used will be included.

What I hear most people proposing isn't a free market, but a deficit market-- spend as much of the world's resources as you want now, because various laws and regulations won't stop you... and your grandchildren can figure out how to pick up the tab.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Who decides what is wasteful? Who enforces it? How did this power get granted?

You shouldn't need to ask "what is wasteful." Using "disposable" plastic containers that fester for a thousand years in a landfill, as opposed to cleaning and re-using containers, is wasteful. Idling your (post-1990) car for more than a minute, as opposed to shutting off your engine, is wasteful. Using an incandescent light bulb that uses eight times the power of a compact fluorescent bulb is wasteful. Letting the water tap run for ten minutes, when you only use a minutes' water, is wasteful.

Most of these things are common-sense choices, and you shouldn't have to ask someone else for "definitions." Usually, it just requires some thought, maybe after someone else has pointed it out to you, and the waste becomes crystal clear.

Who enforces it? Who grants the power? We do... with our votes.

Originally Posted by nekokami

Okiedokie. I love the free market. So we get rid of the subsidies to the oil companies and the nuclear power companies, and we require that they fully fund in escrow the resources needed to clean up their own waste, and that gets included in the energy costs, as passed along down the line.

That's exactly the way to do it. Ecotopia Now!

Originally Posted by nekokami

What I hear most people proposing isn't a free market, but a deficit market-- spend as much of the world's resources as you want now, because various laws and regulations won't stop you... and your grandchildren can figure out how to pick up the tab.

Yup... and I don't want to be around when the kids figure that out, and are in power when serious steps have to be taken. Who do you think is going to be first in line to have their resources limited? The ones who wasted it in the first place...

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

You shouldn't need to ask "what is wasteful."

Ahh...But I should. To quote Don Camillo "You have your loudspeakers and we have our bells. If only one can speak, that is tyranny. If both can speak, that comrade, is Democracy." Let me offer a counterview to each of your examples.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Using "disposable" plastic containers that fester for a thousand years in a landfill, as opposed to cleaning and re-using containers, is wasteful.

How do you sterilize plastic? (I have a microbiology degree, I'm somewhat familiar with the subject.) Don't sterilize it? You'll pick up some interesting pathogens over time. (Trust me). Go back to glass? Why do think people went to plastic in the first place? Because it cost more to manufacture and sterilize bottles that it cost to make plastic bottles. While the cost of plastic goes up with oil, the energy costs to make glass and sterilize it go up just as fast (or faster). Which should we waste more of, energy or landfill? You pick.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Idling your (post-1990) car for more than a minute, as opposed to shutting off your engine, is wasteful.

The most polluting time for a car (internal compustion engine) is the first couple of minutes of running. Do we trade off air pollution versus fuel efficency? (That's always been my big grumble with standard hybrid cars. They get around it by using smaller engines, therefore less pollution.) Besides, do you always know how long you'll be idling? And what if you car doesn't restart? Been known to happen...

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Using an incandescent light bulb that uses eight times the power of a compact fluorescent bulb is wasteful.

Mercury, make us dead! (The original latin was shortsighted.) I voluntarily use compact fluorescent, but what about the mercury they contain? (which isn't in incandescent bulbs.) Our kids are going to bitch about that one, and who going to pay for the recycling? (You just can't dump in the environment...) Which is a bigger waste over time? You pick...

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Letting the water tap run for ten minutes, when you only use a minutes' water, is wasteful.

Let's see, we stop water from flowing into the sea by artificial means, then when we let it go, it's wasteful... Hmmm.... It evaporated from the ocean and falls as rain that flows down into the resevoirs, completing the loop...It's a closed loop...

I shouldn't be so tacky, but people seem to want to live where there is a natural shortage of water. As long as technology can fill the taps, and people who live in such areas are willing to pay the price, why not? You may lead the forceful relocation. (To paraphrase Richard Blaine in Casablanca - I recommend you not try to relocate Texans...)

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Most of these things are common-sense choices, and you shouldn't have to ask someone else for "definitions." Usually, it just requires some thought, maybe after someone else has pointed it out to you, and the waste becomes crystal clear.

Sense is never common (R.A.Heinlein), nor are choices "crystal clear", as I have noted. The problem is I do think, and I don't automatically buy somebody else's world view. You should always question everything as that is the path to knowledge.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Who enforces it? Who grants the power? We do... with our votes.

The same votes that brought us existing copyright at life + 95, curbs on free speech during elections, stripping people of their property rights without recompense, and endless blocks on economic development? Mazel tof, tovarich...

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Yup... and I don't want to be around when the kids figure that out, and are in power when serious steps have to be taken. Who do you think is going to be first in line to have their resources limited? The ones who wasted it in the first place...

Maybe they won't care, driving around in their electric cars, charged off their rooftops. Or maybe they'll shoot the Fed and The Federal government for debasing the currency to nothing...


Me, I'm going to listen to Mama Chola and Her Tijuana Trash, live at the Monterrey Mechanical Jazz Festival.... (Crank it up!!!)

[hidari]

Well Said Nekokami....There is no country in the world that Has a true free market including the USA, Europe, and Japan....Granted the free market has many good things about it... but in the End the government of the country ends up bailing out the "company" or sector if things go wrong in the free Market....

And the way that most companies..and people..in countries in the world use finite resources..ie. OIL and do not consider the future with limited supply need "intervention" and long term thinking not quarterly profits...

hidari.

Originally Posted by nekokami

Okiedokie. I love the free market. So we get rid of the subsidies to the oil companies and the nuclear power companies, and we require that they fully fund in escrow the resources needed to clean up their own waste, and that gets included in the energy costs, as passed along down the line.

For example, nuclear waste is currently projected to be toxic for what, 30,000 years? I'll settle for an endowment to monitor the waste, keep people away from it, check for leaks, etc. for 30,000 years. (Never mind that this is longer than we've had agriculture. We'll just let that pass for now.) If new technological breakthroughs appear that reduce the risk or even make the waste valuable for other purposes, the companies can have their endowment back.

Same with coal mining-- reforestation built into the cost of the coal. Fossil fuel plants and vehicles need to either be carbon-free or include offset credits in their operations.

With this kind of system, I see no problem with the free market. Energy companies and consumers will have plenty of incentives to find their own lower-impact solutions, because the true costs of the energy used will be included.

What I hear most people proposing isn't a free market, but a deficit market-- spend as much of the world's resources as you want now, because various laws and regulations won't stop you... and your grandchildren can figure out how to pick up the tab.

[desertgrandma]

"However, CFL bulbs are not as green as many people believe. First of all they are more complicated than incandescent bulbs requiring more materials, more processing, and therefore more energy during manufacture.
Secondly, they contain electronic components - the manufacture of which requires a range of nasty chemicals, and the release into the atmosphere of dangerous heavy metals and other polution. Last and by no means least, every CFL bulb manufactured today contains not insignificant amounts of the toxic metal mercury."

from this site

http://www.reuk.co.uk/Toxic-Mercury-in-CFL-Bulbs.htm

Disposal is a big problem You are supposed to take them to specific disposal sites. Now, we can't even get people to recycle plastic bags. How are you going to keep these out of landfills? And has anyone seen the proper way to clean up a broken bulb?
scroll down to "how to clean up a broken bulb"

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partner...et_Mercury.pdf

This is from the US enviromental protection agency. Why would I want something like this in my house?? And last, but not least.......I believe the majority, if not all, cfl bulbs are imported from China. Yeah, lets import more crap from China.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Okay, to respond:

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

How do you sterilize plastic?

Full sterilization isn't necessary. Simply wash with warm water and soap, rinse, and reuse. I've been using the same PLASTIC drinking mug for my daily frapps, instead of buying (and throwing away) a new plastic cup every day. It should last me for most of a year, if I'm careful, or maybe 200+ plastic cups not wasted.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

The most polluting time for a car (internal compustion engine) is the first couple of minutes of running.

That's actually about 1 minute, with modern cars. And once they're warmed up, they can be restarted on less fuel than it takes to idle, thanks to electronic-controlled fuel injection. Welcome to the 21st century!

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Besides, do you always know how long you'll be idling? And what if you car doesn't restart? Been known to happen...

Now, you're just nit-picking... but okay: If your car doesn't restart, it's probably a sign that it needs service, IOW, it is not running efficiently. Take the hint!

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I voluntarily use compact fluorescent, but what about the mercury they contain? (which isn't in incandescent bulbs.)

Compact fluorescents can also be recycled when done. Don't throw them away... take them to a recycling center, and they'll be used again, Mercury and all.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Let's see, we stop water from flowing into the sea by artificial means, then when we let it go, it's wasteful... Hmmm.... It evaporated from the ocean and falls as rain that flows down into the resevoirs, completing the loop...It's a closed loop...

It's not the water, Ralph... it's the energy required to clean it and pump it to you.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Sense is never common (R.A.Heinlein), nor are choices "crystal clear", as I have noted. The problem is I do think, and I don't automatically buy somebody else's world view. You should always question everything as that is the path to knowledge.

I'm not saying "don't think." I'm saying that there may well be things you haven't thought of (like the water example above). I know there's plenty of things I haven't thought of, and I'm constantly learning something from someone. Think again, and check out others who may have thought of things you haven't.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Maybe they won't care, driving around in their electric cars, charged off their rooftops. Or maybe they'll shoot the Fed and The Federal government for debasing the currency to nothing...

Or maybe they'll take away what social security is left, and throw everyone over 70 into old folks' barracks. (Hey... sarcasm is fun!)

At any rate, as I said, most conservation and wasteful practices are easy to recognize. We've just become pre-programmed by media and government to not think about them, to embrace and even celebrate the ease at which we can toss the nastiest things into the nearest trash can and thereby forget they ever existed.

That mindset is still prevalent in the American culture, and it's high time to get it out of there.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by desertgrandma

"However, CFL bulbs are not as green as many people believe... Why would I want something like this in my house??

The (much greater) risks of death don't prevent us from driving. As in all things, exercise caution (and common sense).

[Madam Broshkina]

How to clean up a fluorescent bulb from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

Before cleanup: Vent the room
1. Open a window and leave the room for 15 minutes or more.
2. Shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system, if you have one.

Cleanup steps for hard surfaces
3. Carefully scoop up glass fragments and powder using stiff paper or cardboard and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
4. Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
5. Wipe the area clean with damp paper towels or disposable wet wipes and place them in the glass jar or plastic bag.
6. Do not use a vacuum or broom to clean up the broken bulb on hard surfaces.

Cleanup steps for carpeting or rug
3. Carefully pick up glass fragments and place them in a glass jar with metal lid (such as a canning jar) or in a sealed plastic bag.
4. Use sticky tape, such as duct tape, to pick up any remaining small glass fragments and powder.
5. If vacuuming is needed after all visible materials are removed, vacuum the area where the bulb was broken.
6. Remove the vacuum bag (or empty and wipe the canister), and put the bag or vacuum debris in a sealed plastic bag.

Disposal of cleanup materials
7. Immediately place all cleanup materials outside the building in a trash container or outdoor protected area for the next normal trash.
8. Wash your hands after disposing of the jars or plastic bags containing cleanup materials.
9. Check with your local or state government about disposal requirements in your specific area. Some states prohibit such trash disposal and require that broken and unbroken lamps be taken to a recycling center.

Future cleaning of carpeting or rug
10. For at least the next few times you vacuum, shut off the central forced-air heating/air conditioning system and open a window prior to vacuuming.
11. Keep the central heating/air conditioning system shut off and the window open for at least 15 minutes after vacuuming is completed.
Source: U.S. Environmental Protection Agency

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The (much greater) risks of death don't prevent us from driving. As in all things, exercise caution (and common sense).

HUH? I am exercising caution and common sense by NOT bringing mercury, as small amount as it is, into my home, and NOT enriching the retail whores who have jumped on the bandwagon known as the 'green movement' and are pushing every conceivable product know to man under the guise of being 'green'. I can't swing a dead cat without being bombarded by tv shows, newpaper articles, radio programs and shops who love to use the guilt card to entice people to buy their products. Never mind that my bulbs are still perfectly good. I gotta get rid of them and buy CFL bulbs. I should buy a hybrid to reduce emissions. My car is still running well, but I am ruining the earth for the future. I should borrow from library instead of buying my own personal books and DVD's.I should "reduce my carbon footprint."
http://www.worldwatch.org/resources/go_green_save_green
I'm not an articulate person, but I got your 'footprint' right here. And just in case you are wondering..........we recycle here. Plastic bags go back to the store. plastic, tin and paper go in the weekly recyle bin. Unfortunately our city doesn't take glass but in another they did and you can bet that got recycled too.

[jamesdmanley]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Who decides what is wasteful? Who enforces it? How did this power get granted?

lol im sure there will be no shortage of applicants to that job. theres got to be a dozen volunteers just in this thread. talk about an ego trip

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

The (much greater) risks of death don't prevent us from driving. As in all things, exercise caution (and common sense).

no one is federally mandated to drive either ...