Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't? - Page 5

Geralt · 10-07-2014, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillAdams

Poul Anderson was very influential, but not on Tolkien. Read up on Michael Moorcock's finding inspiration for Elric in _The Broken Sword_.

You misunderstood my post completely.
I wasn't claiming Anderson influenced Tolkien. I was giving an example of fantasy before Tolkien's LOTR, that was overshadowed by the same and that was published before LOTR.

WillAdams · 10-07-2014, 10:54 AM

Does anyone know of a good listing of fantasy novels by order of date of publication?

crich70 · 10-07-2014, 11:00 AM

I don't know about by publication date, but Goodreads has a list of Fantasy books:
Goodreads Fantasy

Penforhire · 10-07-2014, 01:13 PM

To me, his lasting influence mostly extends over the sub-genre of "high fantasy" and plenty of authors already mentioned in this thread have escaped his shadow.

I'll add Daniel Abraham's 'Long Price' quartet to the list of fantasy works that owe little debt to Mr. T. In this case, more of a nod to George R.R. Martin.

ApK · 10-07-2014, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Penforhire

fantasy works that owe little debt to Mr. T.

Oh, come on, you were all thinking it.

crich70 · 10-07-2014, 04:24 PM

Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan owe nothing to LOTR certainly. Both pre-date it by a good margin. So does "Wind in the Willows" if I recall correctly.

Penforhire · 10-07-2014, 06:02 PM

Same for works by H. Rider Haggard and E.R. Eddison. They predate Tolkien.

Waylander · 10-07-2014, 06:46 PM

Thanks to Pdurrant. A very simple and stupid mistake.

Greg Anos · 10-07-2014, 07:49 PM

You know, we ought to start a pre-Tolkien fantasy thread. What you're read, what you liked.

The topic is worthy simply for itself...

covingtoncat73 · 10-07-2014, 07:51 PM

I haven't read through the thread but has anyone mentioned George MacDonald? He wrote The Light Princess and The Day Boy and the Night Girl as well as some other books.

crich70 · 10-07-2014, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

I haven't read through the thread but has anyone mentioned George MacDonald? He wrote The Light Princess and The Day Boy and the Night Girl as well as some other books.

He also wrote "The Princess and the Goblin" didn't he? There is also Edith Nesbit's work such as "5 Children and it."

covingtoncat73 · 10-07-2014, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crich70

He also wrote "The Princess and the Goblin" didn't he? There is also Edith Nesbit's work such as "5 Children and it."

Yep, he sure did. I am more fond of The Light Princess, though. I forgot about E. Nesbit and I read 5 Children and it awhile back.

crich70 · 10-07-2014, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

Yep, he sure did. I am more fond of The Light Princess, though. I forgot about E. Nesbit and I read 5 Children and it awhile back.

I first heard of her when I saw a TV version of "5 Children and it" on PBS some time back. There was some interesting comedy in it.

Spoiler:

conan50 · 10-07-2014, 09:32 PM

Anyone mention Baum's Oz books and his other stories? Lots of the older Fantasy books like Carroll's Alice were aimed at children. Even Tolkien first published The Hobbit.

DrNefario · 10-08-2014, 08:34 AM

Tolkien was drawing from the same well as all the earlier fantasy writers: folklore, myths and legends. What he arguably did was show a direction the field could move in, making the magical more mundane and treating the fantastical elements with a history and depth that made them solid and realistic rather than mysterious and elusive. The first kind of fantasy is still alive and well - see Neil Gaiman, etc - but the second has spawned the modern commercialised epic fantasy genre.

I'm not totally convinced that Tolkien even deserves the credit for that - not a lot of modern epic fantasy feels like LotR, even if it shares some tropes. The pulp tradition feels closer to the modern style, but Tolkien maybe showed there was a market for bulky trilogies, and showed how these short adventure stories could be expanded into epics.

If you define fantasy as that stuff that looks like LotR then you could probably argue that it's all derivative of Tolkien, since if it isn't then it isn't fantasy. Just like the old syllogism beloved of SF fans: SF is crap; this isn't crap; therefore this isn't SF.

10-07-2014, 07:51 PM	#70
covingtoncat73 Wizard Posts: 2,745 Karma: 83407757 Join Date: Mar 2011 Device: Kindle Paperwhite, Lenovo Duet Chromebook, Moto e	I haven't read through the thread but has anyone mentioned George MacDonald? He wrote The Light Princess and The Day Boy and the Night Girl as well as some other books. Last edited by covingtoncat73; 10-07-2014 at 07:55 PM.

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10-07-2014, 10:54 AM	#62
WillAdams Wizard Posts: 1,258 Karma: 3439432 Join Date: Feb 2008 Device: Amazon Kindle Paperwhite (300ppi), Samsung Galaxy Book 12	Does anyone know of a good listing of fantasy novels by order of date of publication?

10-07-2014, 11:00 AM	#63
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,310 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	I don't know about by publication date, but Goodreads has a list of Fantasy books: Goodreads Fantasy

10-07-2014, 01:13 PM	#64
Penforhire Wizard Posts: 2,230 Karma: 7145404 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+	To me, his lasting influence mostly extends over the sub-genre of "high fantasy" and plenty of authors already mentioned in this thread have escaped his shadow. I'll add Daniel Abraham's 'Long Price' quartet to the list of fantasy works that owe little debt to Mr. T. In this case, more of a nod to George R.R. Martin.

10-07-2014, 04:24 PM	#66
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,310 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan owe nothing to LOTR certainly. Both pre-date it by a good margin. So does "Wind in the Willows" if I recall correctly.

10-07-2014, 06:02 PM	#67
Penforhire Wizard Posts: 2,230 Karma: 7145404 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Southern California Device: Kindle Voyage & iPhone 7+	Same for works by H. Rider Haggard and E.R. Eddison. They predate Tolkien.

10-07-2014, 06:46 PM	#68
Waylander Guru Posts: 666 Karma: 2905052 Join Date: Oct 2013 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 5 16GB, Kindle Paperwhite 6, Kobo Clara,	Thanks to Pdurrant. A very simple and stupid mistake.

10-07-2014, 07:49 PM	#69
Greg Anos Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,528 Karma: 37057604 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Pocketbook	You know, we ought to start a pre-Tolkien fantasy thread. What you're read, what you liked. The topic is worthy simply for itself...

10-07-2014, 09:32 PM	#74
conan50 Fanatic Posts: 597 Karma: 14054112 Join Date: Jun 2014 Device: kindle	Anyone mention Baum's Oz books and his other stories? Lots of the older Fantasy books like Carroll's Alice were aimed at children. Even Tolkien first published The Hobbit.

10-08-2014, 08:34 AM	#75
DrNefario Wizard Posts: 2,204 Karma: 12029046 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: UK Device: Kindle, Kobo Touch, Nook SimpleTouch	Tolkien was drawing from the same well as all the earlier fantasy writers: folklore, myths and legends. What he arguably did was show a direction the field could move in, making the magical more mundane and treating the fantastical elements with a history and depth that made them solid and realistic rather than mysterious and elusive. The first kind of fantasy is still alive and well - see Neil Gaiman, etc - but the second has spawned the modern commercialised epic fantasy genre. I'm not totally convinced that Tolkien even deserves the credit for that - not a lot of modern epic fantasy feels like LotR, even if it shares some tropes. The pulp tradition feels closer to the modern style, but Tolkien maybe showed there was a market for bulky trilogies, and showed how these short adventure stories could be expanded into epics. If you define fantasy as that stuff that looks like LotR then you could probably argue that it's all derivative of Tolkien, since if it isn't then it isn't fantasy. Just like the old syllogism beloved of SF fans: SF is crap; this isn't crap; therefore this isn't SF.

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