Engst to Pogue: E-Book piracy not a given

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by astra

Did it?
Then why did they change their business model and started selling DRMless content if DRMed was a success?

Why else?

To rope in the people who didn't come to the party in the first place... the "I despise DRM, so I won't play with you!" crowd.

That doesn't actually mean the existing system (with DRM) didn't work... just that they knew they could make even more money by offering content without DRM. And their focus isn't theft... their focus is making more money.

I know, I know, I sound (to everyone, apparently) like all I'm doing is defending DRM. We should be clear that I am not defending the present state of DRM at any retailer/publisher, etc... I am defending the potential of DRM to enact some reasonable measure of security, not too much to infuriate and drive away customers, and enough to mitigate loss through theft.

And I am not saying any retailer (even iTunes) has necessarily reached that point with digital content... but that this is still a young market, and these things can be worked out over time.

Maybe it should be noted, for the sake of understanding, that I do not use DRM on my products specifically because I as a bookseller am not satisfied with the present state of electronic DRM to "secure" content. However, I do actually use a DRM process in the purchase system I use, and have had no complaints (or even comments) about it, from members here or any other purchasers.

So: My site is an example of a DRM system that does its job, mitigates (though clearly does not eliminate) loss through theft, and does not infuriate customers (and, in fact, went almost entirely unnoticed by all). See? It's not impossible.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

To rope in the people who didn't come to the party in the first place... the "I despise DRM, so I won't play with you!" crowd.

Ah, no.

The anti-DRM crowd simply demonstrated to their uneducated friends how DRM is bad for the consumer. Once the number of suckers dropped too much, they had to go non-DRM or lose business.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

That doesn't actually mean the existing system (with DRM) didn't work...

If they got rid of it, it didn't work.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I am defending the potential of DRM to enact some reasonable measure of security, not too much to infuriate and drive away customers, and enough to mitigate loss through theft.

Can't be done. Any attempt will make the legal version less valuable than the illegal version.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

However, I do actually use a DRM process in the purchase system I use, and have had no complaints (or even comments) about it, from members here or any other purchasers.

I checked your site. You don't seem to know what DRM is. There is no DRM on your site.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Apple are said to have anything from 40% to over 70% of the MP3 player market. They completely dominate the market for hard-disk MP3 players, that is for sure. Even if you accept the reports which say that their market share is less than 50%, there's no doubt at all that they are the dominant manufacturer of MP3 players.

Steve Job's gives some information and number in his open letter to the music industry on DRM. The most telling pargraph is here:

Why would the big four music companies agree to let Apple and others distribute their music without using DRM systems to protect it? The simplest answer is because DRMs haven’t worked, and may never work, to halt music piracy. Though the big four music companies require that all their music sold online be protected with DRMs, these same music companies continue to sell billions of CDs a year which contain completely unprotected music. That’s right! No DRM system was ever developed for the CD, so all the music distributed on CDs can be easily uploaded to the Internet, then (illegally) downloaded and played on any computer or player.

Here is a link to the full text:

http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

BOb

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by tirsales

And no - I haven't bough much new music since it became illegal to rip a CD. (I didn't pirate it either, but I just got old CDs without that restriction and spent much less money).

Is that the case in Germany?? I hadn't heard about any like that in the US. Of course, I stopped buying CDs ages ago when it became more cost effective for me to just buy single songs that I liked.

I'm certain it's illegal as all hell, but I also take all of my iTunes music, convert it to mp3 and store it on one of my backup drives. I refuse to be told that, if my iPod breaks and I decide not to replace it with another iPod, I also lose all of the music I purchased.

Of course, I have the same view about ebooks. I will keep DRM Kindle books to an absolute minimum. If my Kindle is lost or stolen, or if I start pushing up the daisies, I want to continue to have some access to the books I purchased (well, not so much in the second instance, but in that case I would like to be able to leave my book collection to someone, complete with a good readable selection of books).

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

I checked your site. You don't seem to know what DRM is. There is no DRM on your site.

Then you didn't look close enough.

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Is that the case in Germany?? I hadn't heard about any like that in the US. Of course, I stopped buying CDs ages ago when it became more cost effective for me to just buy single songs that I liked.

It is, yes. And yes, this effectively forbids looking a DVD with an open-source-player on Linux, because those players circumvent the copy-protection system. The same would apply to any other player/reader/etc who circumvents the copy-protection-mechanism, and that means nearly all open-source-readers.
And that is the reason why I dispise any DRM-system out there. Of course, I could circumvent the DRM (it is easy) - but hey, if I buy my stuff, I at least want to use it legally... And if I'd have to use it illegally - well, I'm not going to buy it.

I'm certain it's illegal as all hell, but I also take all of my iTunes music, convert it to mp3 and store it on one of my backup drives. I refuse to be told that, if my iPod breaks and I decide not to replace it with another iPod, I also lose all of the music I purchased.

I understand you only too well. Nevertheless: A system that forces legitimate users into criminality is not a system worth considering or paying money too.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by tirsales

It is, yes. And yes, this effectively forbids looking a DVD with an open-source-player on Linux, because those players circumvent the copy-protection system. The same would apply to any other player/reader/etc who circumvents the copy-protection-mechanism, and that means nearly all open-source-readers.
And that is the reason why I dispise any DRM-system out there. Of course, I could circumvent the DRM (it is easy) - but hey, if I buy my stuff, I at least want to use it legally... And if I'd have to use it illegally - well, I'm not going to buy it.


I understand you only too well. Nevertheless: A system that forces legitimate users into criminality is not a system worth considering or paying money too.

But the post was about it being illegal to rip a CD you own to Mp3. Is that the case in Germany?? Even when I do buy a CD, I immediately rip it to Mp3 so that I've got a backup of it.

Although not being able to view a DVD on any player you wanted .... that strikes me as really really strange. Bizarre in fact.

However, you'll get no argument from me on the fact that the DRM systems are really screwball.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Then you didn't look close enough.

Obviously. So where are you hiding your DRM on your site?

[tirsales]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

But the post was about it being illegal to rip a CD you own to Mp3. Is that the case in Germany?? Even when I do buy a CD, I immediately rip it to Mp3 so that I've got a backup of it.

It is. Okay, it is a bit more complicated then that.
It is legal to make private copies of media you own (a couple of requirements, but they are not important ATM). So, not long ago I was allowed to copy every CD I have, share it with my family and play it in whatever player I had. But - and that is a big but - this law got "supplemented". In fact, you still have to right to make private copies (the government was very solid about that) - provided, that you dont
a) circumvent any copy-protection mechanism (and nominally every CD you can buy is copy-protected), no matter how stupid (okay, I may prevent copy-right-mechanisms by using photo-mechanic copying, e.g. Xeroxing)
b) break any licensing or similar (and I guess iTunes gives you the license to burn a CD - but not to rip it afterwards, so it is illegal)
c) use "obviosly illegal originals" (e.g. downloaded music, files shared with friends, etc)
d) etc
It gets more complicated, but I'm stopping here.

So - playing a DVD on a non-licensed player is illegal. Ripping a normal CD is illegal (though the copy-protection is worthless and most software wouldn't even tell you about the protection), but ripping an "old CD without that pro-forma protection" is legal.
And - I am sure about that - burning a CD from MP3 (you bought) and then ripping that CD (in order to circumvent DRM or similar) is illegal.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

But the post was about it being illegal to rip a CD you own to Mp3. Is that the case in Germany?? Even when I do buy a CD, I immediately rip it to Mp3 so that I've got a backup of it.

Although not being able to view a DVD on any player you wanted .... that strikes me as really really strange. Bizarre in fact.

Ripping a CD that you've bought to MP3 is technically illegal in the UK, too, although the government here has recognised that it's a silly law and is about to change it. I don't think anyone here ever has - or ever would - get prosecuted for it.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by rlauzon

Obviously. So where are you hiding your DRM on your site?

Ah, that would be telling. As you've so often said, "Reread my post."

And bear in mind, as I've said before, that DRM does not have to be a nasty, draconian, teeth-knashing lockdown of formats, usage rules or authorized readers. It can be virtually invisible and relatively painless, but still establish some security.

[zelda_pinwheel]

the whole sony rootkit debacle seems to have established that hidden DRM is even less popular than out in the open DRM.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

the whole sony rootkit debacle seems to have established that hidden DRM is even less popular than out in the open DRM.

That pretty much depends on what it's doing. Unlike Sony, my security isn't rewriting your computer's operating code or registry, leaving behind spyware or cookies, or locking things behind 12-digit passwords. In fact, it's not invasive AT ALL.

[astra]

Guys, I think Steve Jordan means that every edition of a book you buy from his site has some sort of mark that if you share the book over the Internet it can be tracked down to the initial owner the copy (something like...when you buy lrf file, it has an embeded numner 017, next lrf has a number 018 etc., if you know where to look for the number when you open the file you can find it)

I agree with that type of DRM.

P.S. I could be totally wrong in assuming what type of DRM he is taling about

[Trenien]

Originally Posted by tirsales

No, they actually didn't. I know a drekload of people who didn't use iTunes for DRM-reasons (including me). And most people (I know) didn't accept DRM - they just circumvented it. So .. where's the DRM acceptance in that?
AND the iTunes software is crap - the system would be so much more valuable if it wasn't tied to this software...

Actually, despite everything Job may say, the first reason why Apple used DRM with iTunes was to make sure people would buy ipods. If you don't have an ipod, the whole iTunes+Mac/Windows+ipod = buying music and uploading it to your player is so easy that even a brain dead moron can do it breaks down. Combine that with the ipod's flood of adds showing how cool it is to own one of the Apple's players.
That you needed an ipod had nothing to do with genuine technical limitations, Apple designed it that way. Interstingly enough, it did show that if you offer ease of use and resonable prices (although I personally still think what they charge for a song is way unreasonable), people will buy from you.
They recently opened their offer because of: 1. Customers' pressure, and 2. The feeling they have more or less cornered the market as much they can hope to.

They also did another very interesting thing. Ten years ago, Apple had rabid fanboys, people who didn't give damn about their products and those who thought them nice but too expensive for them. Along with the whole ipod mess described above came a new category of persons who realized Apple had an even worse monopolistic behavior than Microsoft, doing everything it could to get vendor lock in. And despite Job's reality bending field, this is BAD for Apple's glitzy image.

Hence the mp3 offer.