US Judge orders Microsoft to hand over data stored in Ireland

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

My mistake. It should've read "in my opinion". I leave that out at times when it's what I meant. I'll make a concerted effort to preface my future statements with an IMO.

Well, why don't you confuse the issue while you are at it...

If it is your *opinion* that the US is not entitled to that data, then your opinion is as wrong as the one about the moon and green cheese.

If it is your opinion that the US should not be entitled, then the "should" part is already all the evidence we need that it is an opinion.

When you are arguing about the legality of something, it is important to distinguish between the facts and the wishes.

Fact: US law says the US is entitled to that data. Any opinions are welcome to be as deluded as they want. For a very long time, people thought the world was flat.
Opinion: The US laws saying that, should be struck from the record.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Fact: US law says the US is entitled to that data. Any opinions are welcome to be as deluded as they want. For a very long time, people thought the world was flat.
Opinion: The US laws saying that, should be struck from the record.

And for a very long time, slavery was legal. Does that make it right? or just legal?

Mores change, laws change.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by taustin

The order wasn't issued against the information, it was issued against Microsoft, which most certainly is subject to US courts. (Aside from laws that say exactly that, but again, the real conflict isn't between Microsoft and the US government, it's between US law and Irish law, a point that Microsoft is trying to force the US prosecutors to admit.)

The court requested information that does not belong to Microsoft, that is stored in another country. How is the order not against the information?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The court requested information that does not belong to Microsoft, that is stored in another country. How is the order not against the information?

Since when does it not belong to Microsoft?

If Microsoft does not have rights to the data, then what are they doing with it? And how can the government EVER demand data from anyone?

Perhaps you really meant to say, why should the government be allowed to obtain a person's data from an entity that hosts the data, without permission from the account owner... but that is a different argument.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

And for a very long time, slavery was legal. Does that make it right? or just legal?

Mores change, laws change.

Ah, I get it now.

You are living in a fantasy land where people other than you are debating the morality of this law.

We are not. We are debating the legality.

It would behoove you to either stick to the topic, or alert us to your change in topic BEFOREhand. And I am okay with either option. We can debate the morality. But why were you hiding that from us at first?

It is not "right" to obfuscate your arguments so we don't have a fair chance to respond to you.

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Ah, I get it now.

You are living in a fantasy land where people other than you are debating the morality of this law.

We are not. We are debating the legality.

It would behoove you to either stick to the topic, or alert us to your change in topic BEFOREhand. And I am okay with either option. We can debate the morality. But why were you hiding that from us at first?

It is not "right" to obfuscate your arguments so we don't have a fair chance to respond to you.

You opened the door with the flat earth bit. Next time, watch which doors you open.

And if all you're interested in is the legality, then there's nothing to discuss or debate, since it's currently legal.

[Glorfindel]

Originally Posted by aardbewoner

Propaganda , the can get that data from the NSA for free.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Since when does it not belong to Microsoft?

If Microsoft does not have rights to the data, then what are they doing with it? And how can the government EVER demand data from anyone?

Perhaps you really meant to say, why should the government be allowed to obtain a person's data from an entity that hosts the data, without permission from the account owner... but that is a different argument.

The judge said "It is a question of control, not a question of the location of that information". Microsoft doesn't own the information.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

You opened the door with the flat earth bit. Next time, watch which doors you open.

And if all you're interested in is the legality, then there's nothing to discuss or debate, since it's currently legal.

I'm confused -- the flat earth thing was about your right to be deluded, just as they were. If I have opened any doors, I certainly don't see where you have taken advantage of it...

Your fantasyland was entered way back in post #45.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The judge said "It is a question of control, not a question of the location of that information". Microsoft doesn't own the information.

Then surely it would be illegal to demand it of them if it were stored on US servers as well. Since they don't control it, after all.

I think your interpretation of "control" is a little off, personally. For one thing, where do your ownership claims come in?

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Then surely it would be illegal to demand it of them if it were stored on US servers as well. Since they don't control it, after all.

I think your interpretation of "control" is a little off, personally. For one thing, where do your ownership claims come in?

The US courts have jurisdiction in the US, they don't have jurisdiction in Ireland. MS Has control of the information since they own the servers, but they also have legal responsibilities to the account owners.

Even if in the US the court can can dismiss people's rights and request the information, I don't see how you can possibly argue that their rights are extended to information that is stored on another country's territory.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The US courts have jurisdiction in the US, they don't have jurisdiction in Ireland. MS Has control of the information since they own the servers, but they also have legal responsibilities to the account owners.

Even if in the US the court can can dismiss people's rights and request the information, I don't see how you can possibly argue that their rights are extended to information that is stored on another country's territory.

Stop moving those goalposts. Previously, you claimed that Microsoft does not "own" the data, and thus cannot be forced to give it up. I argued that if so, then neither can they demand data that is stored in the US, since apparently only the owner has the right to relinquish the data.

Does what you say have anything to do with that back-and-forth?
If so, please elaborate.
If not, please do not quote me randomly, after you have moved on. It makes it very difficult to figure out what you are saying.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Stop moving those goalposts. Previously, you claimed that Microsoft does not "own" the data, and thus cannot be forced to give it up. I argued that if so, then neither can they demand data that is stored in the US, since apparently only the owner has the right to relinquish the data.

Does what you say have anything to do with that back-and-forth?
If so, please elaborate.
If not, please do not quote me randomly, after you have moved on. It makes it very difficult to figure out what you are saying.

I didn't move the goalposts. In the US the person or corporation that controls the data can also relinquish it at the demand of the US court. In Ireland that is not the case, since the US court does not have jurisdiction.

To explain my point another way: MS is not an embassy, any physical property that they own in another country does not fall under US jurisdiction, so when it come to the laws that have to be followed in regards to the information stored in Ireland they have to be Irish laws not American laws.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

Then this ruling would also apply to physical records stored in filing cabinets and safe deposit boxes in Ireland that are under Microsoft's control?

Only if those filing cabinets could be accessed by someone in the US.

Are you arms that long?

Again, this isn't a new point. I've mentioned it before. You're spinning in circles, running from ignoring one point to the next, and have arrived back where you started.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

My mistake. It should've read "in my opinion". I leave that out at times when it's what I meant. I'll make a concerted effort to preface my future statements with an IMO.

It would certainly be easier to understand what you're saying if you actually say it. The internet is not known for instilling mind reading abilities, despite what many people seem to believe.