Smashwords titles head for Libraries

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by avantman42

I haven't read your post, but I read Nate's (with your post quoted). I thought they read as annoyed rather than inflammatory.

That said, I dare say Mark Coker is getting a lot of heat over this, and that may have made him a bit over-sensitive.

Let me also say that I was very surprised to be "breaking" the news. I don't participate on a lot of writer groups anymore, but those folks are usually right on top of stuff like this--anything that involves book distribution. The books have supposedly been shipping to Overdrive for a while. I was checking every other week? or so and saw mine marked as shipped so checked for them. I've learned the hard way that just because Createspace says "shipped and available" doesn't mean they show in the Ingram database (or B&N and so on).

I found it interesting that overdrive said the librarians requested it. If they are working with some invisible number of librarians or relying on surveys...my librarians would probably love to be in on that!

I

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The timing can't have helped his blood pressure much, coming on a day Amazon had a throwaway line in the FireTV that points out they have way more exclusive titles (500,000) than Smashwords has titles (~280,000). (The old "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" scenario.)

Can't be happy with the nameless "librarian" behind the fiasco.

Had I really thought no one had reported it to him, I'd have been more than happy to have sent him an email. Shrug. But honestly, I don't stay on top of these things like I used to and really, after the shipping started, someone from Smash should probably have looked to see how the books were displayed and/or verified that they were in fact showing up. Not that I blame Mark or anyone else from Smash, but I did assume they knew either because it was the only way Smash could get the titles on there or someone had already asked about it. It's true that Smash may not have known. But someone at overdrive programmed it that way so it wasn't done spur of the moment, which means it was talked about and planned.

And isn't it convenient to fall back on the nameless "libraries/librarians requested it." Okay. Who? Where? When? This implies thoughtful research and planning...and if there is such an organization/survey being done, how does one get on that council of experts? I'd love to suggest my library be involved in "improvements" at Overdrive. I'm sure other librarians would love to put in their two cents as well. Shoot, I bet a few READERS would love to offer opinions...

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

And isn't it convenient to fall back on the nameless "libraries/librarians requested it."

Too convenient.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it is a matter of public record that the BPHs aren't happy with Amazon for *not* ghettoizing indies and Overdrive, unlike Amazon, is utterly dependent on the BPHs for their survival. They *can* be pushed around.

I doubt we'll ever get a clear answer to the burning question: "What were they thinking?!!" Or, "In what world is segregating a collection of books deep behind hidden menus meant to 'highlight' them?"

But, absent a straight answer I will have to default to "Somebody made a phone call."

[tubemonkey]

From Mark's comment at The Passive Voice [emphasis mine]:

The deal with OverDrive happened because so many librarians demanded it, because so many patrons wanted these books, and because OverDrive is committed to serving libraries and their patrons.

OD is committed to serving their bottom line

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

And isn't it convenient to fall back on the nameless "libraries/librarians requested it." Okay. Who? Where? When? This implies thoughtful research and planning...and if there is such an organization/survey being done, how does one get on that council of experts?

My first thought on reading that was that some librarians had contacted Overdrive and voiced concern that there was going to be a sudden glut of self-published books. It honestly didn't imply "thoughtful research and planning" to me. Rather, to me, it implied a rushed fix.

I've no idea which of us is right. We may never know.

[speakingtohe]

I am missing something here.

I can't see the point of Overdrive segregating Indies. Why carry them in the first place if they do not want them to be seen?

And how can the BPH exert any more pressure than before. Overdrive currently AFAIK has a lock in most countries outside the US. I am not in the US, but I would assume that Amazon would supply Indy titles to libraries there if requested to so?

I am sure that a lot(some") of librarians can be elitist or snobbish, but they are not forced to buy/list the books are they? Why would they pay tax money to buy something they did
not want to be seen? Surely this is bizarre and could come back to bite them.

I do not disbelieve this is happening, but why?

My understanding is that the libraries are not forced to acquire the books, some of the BPH would just as soon not lend to libraries, and only provide them to Overdrive due to public opinion and in some countries, perhaps laws. Overdrive is used to pressure from them I am sure.

Seems like some kind of idiocy on behalf of all the parties concerned and a lawsuit waiting to happen, but probably I am just not understanding the issue.

Helen

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I am missing something here.

I can't see the point of Overdrive segregating Indies. Why carry them in the first place if they do not want them to be seen?

And how can the BPH exert any more pressure than before. Overdrive currently AFAIK has a lock in most countries outside the US. I am not in the US, but I would assume that Amazon would supply Indy titles to libraries there if requested to so?

I am sure that a lot(some") of librarians can be elitist or snobbish, but they are not forced to buy/list the books are they? Why would they pay tax money to buy something they did
not want to be seen? Surely this is bizarre and could come back to bite them.

I do not disbelieve this is happening, but why?

My understanding is that the libraries are not forced to acquire the books, some of the BPH would just as soon not lend to libraries, and only provide them to Overdrive due to public opinion and in some countries, perhaps laws. Overdrive is used to pressure from them I am sure.

Seems like some kind of idiocy on behalf of all the parties concerned and a lawsuit waiting to happen, but probably I am just not understanding the issue.

Helen

No, generally speaking you have the right of it. No one really understands why they did it or who put them up to it or what they are thinking. The BPH probably has the most to gain--libraries don't have TONS of ebooks available--it's fairly limited because the BPH don't want to provide libraries with books--it's a single sale and they want to generate continuous income. So if you throw in a few thousand indies, we could gain some attention/sales/ground against the trad books. In other words, we might be in danger of being noticed.

I doubt Amazon would supply them. Amazon has their own (meager) lending program and if they ever get going with that, they will want to make books in their program exclusive. The current lending structure REQUIRES that your book be exclusive to Amazon to be in it. Amazon will have to find a way to "charge" for the books (like SCRIBD) or make money off of it--and program the lending and return (more so than they currently do, which is programmed to allow one book per month, per account.)

It's an interesting thing to watch. I had NO idea it would cause such a firestorm. I just assumed I was last to know. I've actually learned a lot about overdrive and the program overall from the various posts. It's been informative.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

No, generally speaking you have the right of it. No one really understands why they did it or who put them up to it or what they are thinking. The BPH probably has the most to gain--libraries don't have TONS of ebooks available--it's fairly limited because the BPH don't want to provide libraries with books--it's a single sale and they want to generate continuous income. So if you throw in a few thousand indies, we could gain some attention/sales/ground against the trad books. In other words, we might be in danger of being noticed.

I doubt Amazon would supply them. Amazon has their own (meager) lending program and if they ever get going with that, they will want to make books in their program exclusive. The current lending structure REQUIRES that your book be exclusive to Amazon to be in it. Amazon will have to find a way to "charge" for the books (like SCRIBD) or make money off of it--and program the lending and return (more so than they currently do, which is programmed to allow one book per month, per account.)

It's an interesting thing to watch. I had NO idea it would cause such a firestorm. I just assumed I was last to know. I've actually learned a lot about overdrive and the program overall from the various posts. It's been informative.

I don't read a lot of Indy books generally although I have enjoyed a few, not out of prejudice, but just too many authors I will never get to read enough of before I die dammit. Chances are I would read more if they were in the library.
I try to read at least one new author a month or more although it makes my unattainable TBR longer and a new author is a new author to me regardless of who publishes them.

I think labeling them is as detrimental as hiding them as it is my feeling that library users are less impulsive and more conservative overall and will start to believe the library is 'saving' them..

Alas there is a lot of crap out there and this is contributing to the librarians feeling that they are saving the literary world. yeah right! I have read more than a few horrendous library books.

I don't think libraries should be forced to carry all books, or that Overdrive should be either. Just a little common sense. If the book has merit, don't burden it with labels and restrictions. No merit, why carry it?

I see no solution outside of lawsuits against segregation. A consortium of select or successful Indy authors would no doubt become like a BPH if successful, just human nature. No blame implied.

It must be very frustrating in many ways to be a newer author not picked up by a publisher or choosing not to be. Not that different in practical terms than 20-100 years ago but the issues are much more visible. Still I think you are in a stronger position than authors were in prior to ebooks and self publishing.

Helen

[BearMountainBooks]

Definitely a stronger position than years past--as are authors overall. Some contracts are getting better in the trad world because the publishers know that authors have a choice. I'm fairly certain that I've made more money going indie than I would have going trad, but some of that is timing and luck.

I don't think libraries should be forced to carry all books, or that Overdrive should be either.

No one is forcing overdrive to carry the books--in fact they get paid if the books sell and they take a hefty cut--larger than most retailers. No one forces libraries to buy ANY book so having them in the mix shouldn't be a burden on the taxpayer or the librarian. That's the point. The libraries are free to pick and choose just like they always were, but segregating them...well, that really only benefits the publishers and to some extent overdrive (The publishers charge libraries a very hefty price to carry ebooks--usually much higher than list price.) If librarians choose more expensive books, overdrive gets a larger amount of money than it will for indies with books at 5 dollars or less.

If I uploaded to overdrive myself (which I understand I could probably do because I have more than 10 books, but I have to write to overdrive, explain the number and then petition them with a list of how many I expect to publish each year, etc.) I could price my books differently. I don't know what my cut would be. But ultimately we don't put our books in libraries to make money--we do it to be read, to be noticed/discovered.

And to some extent getting in at all is "getting the foot in the door." Some libraries might buy our books. Would more buy them if we weren't shunted off to a special area? Probably. It's possible no libraries will buy us at all as the situation currently stands.

We'll see where it goes.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Definitely a stronger position than years past--as are authors overall. Some contracts are getting better in the trad world because the publishers know that authors have a choice. I'm fairly certain that I've made more money going indie than I would have going trad, but some of that is timing and luck.



No one is forcing overdrive to carry the books--in fact they get paid if the books sell and they take a hefty cut--larger than most retailers. No one forces libraries to buy ANY book so having them in the mix shouldn't be a burden on the taxpayer or the librarian. That's the point. The libraries are free to pick and choose just like they always were, but segregating them...well, that really only benefits the publishers and to some extent overdrive (The publishers charge libraries a very hefty price to carry ebooks--usually much higher than list price.) If librarians choose more expensive books, overdrive gets a larger amount of money than it will for indies with books at 5 dollars or less.

If I uploaded to overdrive myself (which I understand I could probably do because I have more than 10 books, but I have to write to overdrive, explain the number and then petition them with a list of how many I expect to publish each year, etc.) I could price my books differently. I don't know what my cut would be. But ultimately we don't put our books in libraries to make money--we do it to be read, to be noticed/discovered.

And to some extent getting in at all is "getting the foot in the door." Some libraries might buy our books. Would more buy them if we weren't shunted off to a special area? Probably. It's possible no libraries will buy us at all as the situation currently stands.

We'll see where it goes.

So how does it benefit overdrive if the publishers charge more. Do they get a percentage of list? I thought it was a hosting/service fee?

I don't think more libraries would buy your books regardless of shunting, I doubt they even really know fully about how the system works and the implications.
My understanding is that many libraries are operating as a popularity contest. They lease massive amounts of bestsellers(PB) so their number of borrowed books is high.

It is not in their self interest to buy or lease books, no matter how low priced that nobody borrows.

In your position I would go through the hoops, no matter how annoying, to get your books listed unless it is exorbitantly expensive. One may resent the necessity but if it gives you an edge in a very competitive market it seems worth it to me. No pain no gain as someone once told me Might not be all about the money, but money is nice to have on occasion.

Helen

Editlus there is a reasonable chance that they will stop segregating either through choice or being forced to. Good to be in position when they are and benefit from any compensation/publicity if it happens

[BearMountainBooks]

Overdrive does charge libraries a fee and provides software they lease to the libraries. They also take a cut from the sale price of the book. So if Random House charges 40 dollars for BestsellerX, Overdrive gets a percent of that in revenue. They rest they pass back to Random House who then passes part to the author/agent. I don't know the percentage they keep from the big guys.

Random House gets to set prices independent of list price for libraries. One of their complaints is that an ebook from RH might be 40 dollars -- whereas the print book is only 25.

I cannot independently change the price of my books via the Smash route to overdrive (and I'm not saying I would do it if I could, just that the big guys do it and I can't). The argument for why the price is higher for a library is because the library only pays once for the ebook. They might have to repurchase a hardback that gets ruined or read a lot.

Yes. Lots of controversy there about the practice and whether it is valid. One of the reasons publishers like SCRIBD is because they get paid by the read--so the revenue isn't "once only."

I am happy to get my books into libraries. It's something I've worked on for a long time. I had hoped that this route with Smash would work. And it does. Sort of. It's not ideal, which is something I didn't know until I contacted my librarian and then posted about the experience on my blog...and that started this whole discussion.

It remains to be seen if the smash route is a viable route. If librarians don't order the books, well, the answer is no. In retrospect, I wish I'd tried a different avenue first, but I had no idea that the agreement would result in a Big Scarlet Letter across the front of my books... :>)

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I cannot independently change the price of my books via the Smash route to overdrive

At the risk of derailing the thread, yes you can. The Smashwords dashboard allows you to set a different price for libraries. I think you can even set it to free if you wish. It defaults to retail price.

[speakingtohe]

I won't quote
Interesting. I didn't know that Overdrive got a percentage of sales. And it might even be legal to push those books to the front. Stores showcase products that pay a fee. I doubt it is legal to segregate books though.

I have no idea first hand what this amounts to. Not important but if you would be so kind as to give a link to a library that lists your book(s) I can see the red letter. Even if not a literal red letter. I will probably look it up eventually if not, but today my brain is deader than usual.

I am aware of Smashwords only through mobileread and I don't think most people know who they are. I have always bought books from new to me authors based on looking at the back cover and inside blurb. Only time I m aware of a publisher these days even is when I see that damned penguin as a cover. How tacky is that

I am rooting for you however you approach it.

Helen

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by avantman42

At the risk of derailing the thread, yes you can. The Smashwords dashboard allows you to set a different price for libraries. I think you can even set it to free if you wish. It defaults to retail price.

Thanks. I'll look into it. Although my sense of fairness will probably not allow me to charge libraries more just because I can!

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I won't quote
Interesting. Not important but if you would be so kind as to give a link to a library that lists your book(s) I can see the red letter. Even if not a literal red letter. I will probably look it up eventually if not, but today my brain is deader than usual.

I am aware of Smashwords only through mobileread and I don't think most people know who they are. I have always bought books from new to me authors based on looking at the back cover and inside blurb. Only time I m aware of a publisher these days even is when I see that damned penguin as a cover. How tacky is that

I am rooting for you however you approach it.

Helen

Thank you! You are very kind.

As for a library that "shows" my book, do you mean a link to the overdrive library where you can select a list? Let me get you the name of one. My local library does not have the proper "list" available. But I know of at least two that have the "see more books" and then you can find my name. Let me hunt down a link!

Maria