Selecting an ebook reader

[Hrafn]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I think no such thing. I merely take offense at your apparent belief that any ereader with an integrated bookstore is an ad-bloated experience with no priorities other than to suck your money, and thus completely unsuited to the goal of Just Reading.

I speak of the Kindle because that is what I know, in order to provide an example of a device and workflow where you are totally wrong.

Thank you eschwartz for informing me that I'm "totally wrong" for not wanting "an integrated bookstore" (or wanting to use my eReader to search for books at all, for that matter). Funny I cannot remember using the phrase "ad-bloated" (which seems somewhat more histrionic than my "be advertised at" -- words-put-into-mouths, anybody?).

I must therefore endure remaining in the "totally wrong" universe (it's really rather roomy actually), rather than your 'totally right' one (which appears to be perfectly synonymous with the interior of your head).

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Hrafn

No, I never said that everybody else needed to be told. Merely that those who are incapable of making a purchase decision without advertising appeared to need to be told.

Personally I think this is just an assumption born out of your pre-conceived beliefs. You might be surprised at how few people buy a Kindle (or Nook) because they want to be "told what to buy." They buy them, in the U.S. at any rate, because 1) It's hard to find anything else, and 2) They are cheaply priced -- especially when taking into account clearance, refurbished, on-sale or used devices. And 3) They are good quality eReaders. Not everything is black and white, nor does it help your cause to condescend to those who don't agree with you. (I will readily admit that things could be quite a bit different in New Zealand.)

[Hrafn]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Personally I think this is just an assumption born out of your pre-conceived beliefs. You might be surprised at how few people buy a Kindle (or Nook) because they want to be "told what to buy." They buy them, in the U.S. at any rate, because 1) It's hard to find anything else, and 2) They are cheaply priced -- especially when taking into account clearance, refurbished, on-sale or used devices. And 3) They are good quality eReaders. Not everything is black and white, nor does it help your cause to condescend to those who don't agree with you. (I will readily admit that things could be quite a bit different in New Zealand.)

Given that my "told what to buy" was about about people-who-need-advertising (i.e. against "So ... when you buy books, you buy them from companies that don't advertise? How do you even know they exist?"), not people-who-buy-Nooks-or-Kindles, your line of argument appears to be completely irrelevant to my assumptions or beliefs.

I will admit to being probably less tolerant of advertising than most, but that does not mean that I think everybody less intolerant needs to be "told what to buy".

[Hrafn]

Incidentally, could eschwartz tell us if we're likewise "totally wrong" if some of us want features or innovations such as:

1. Different sized eInk displays
2. eReader as smartphone cover
3. waterproof eInk reader
4. eReader with camera and OCR
5. Flexible screens

...or any of the other (sometimes improbable) variants that independent manufacturers continue to offer, but which the big retailers have largely abandoned?

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Hrafn

I will admit to being probably less tolerant of advertising than most, but that does not mean that I think everybody less intolerant needs to be "told what to buy".

Thing is, I don't think most people who buy a Kindle or a Nook are buying them to be "told what to buy." I think you overestimate the hold Amazon or Barnes & Noble has on their eReader device buyers. As I said in my last post, we buy Nooks and Kindles in the U.S. because 1) It's hard to find anything else, 2) They're relatively cheap and, 3) They're well-built devices.

But I've said enough on this. I'll let you have the last word.

[Hrafn]

Originally Posted by Hrafn

Given that my "told what to buy" was about about people-who-need-advertising (i.e. against "So ... when you buy books, you buy them from companies that don't advertise? How do you even know they exist?"), not people-who-buy-Nooks-or-Kindles, your line of argument appears to be completely irrelevant to my assumptions or beliefs.

Originally Posted by rcentros

Thing is, I don't think most people who buy a Kindle or a Nook are buying them to be "told what to buy." I think you overestimate the hold Amazon or Barnes & Noble has on their eReader device buyers. As I said in my last post, we buy Nooks and Kindles in the U.S. because 1) It's hard to find anything else, 2) They're relatively cheap and, 3) They're well-built devices.

But I've said enough on this. I'll let you have the last word.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hrafn

You appear to be sublimely unaware of the difference between capacity and actual content. Having the capacity for your library is not the same as having the content of your library on the device.

Perhaps I should've been clearer. Put the books on your other device too. It's that simple.

It may not be the easiest and best way, but it certainly is not the disaster you seem to feel it is, because it is not all hat hard and bothersome, and it shouldn't be your Grand Criteria for what an ereader should be, and there is no good reason for any ereader manufacturer to raise the cost of production by adding in a feature that the vast majority of their customers will not use, at least certainly not for this edge case. I'm not saying you cannot use mSD cards, I am saying that you should not get so upset about the lack of them, considering how easy it is to add books to your device even without one.

Most people when they mention why they want mSD card slots will fulminate about the extra storage, not the movable storage. Because how often do you really need to switch all your books over to a new ereader, on the spot, and have not had a chance at any previous time to load up that one?

Wherever the buyer wants, and is willing to pay, for it to end. NOT where eschwartz-the-condescending decides it must end.

Here, let me add in the rest of what I said:

Where does it end? If you have 32GB of books on your nice ereader with the expansion slot, will you go into panic attacks because you can't fit another 100GB?? Maybe the book you end up wanting is the 80,001st book, the one you couldn't fit on! Oh noes!

So your claim that you need the extra storage just in case you get struck with the need for a specific book that you simply cannot do without, right now, is an unfulfillable need. You can never really solve that problem, no matter how many books you have on your device -- there are always more.

What if somebody wants the opportunity to read a completely random classic, or have an encyclopaedia with them somewhere without internet access or any of a hundred and one other reasons why somebody might want a very large amount of text.

Then as I have said before, you will just have to load up enough books to be prepared for as many wants as you can anticipate... keeping in mind that even with an mSD card, you will not have that opportunity!! There are hundreds of gigabytes of information and you cannot possibly hold them all... so at some point you will need to pick and choose.

The point is just because you cannot imagine why somebody would want more than 3GB does not mean that nobody reasonably could. Your argument is an Argument from Personal Incredulity, a logical fallacy, and thus invalid.

I can imagine it. I simply believe it is a neurosis, which hardly makes it reasonable.

Why? Because eschwartz says you must? Not a very good reason. Ever hear of convergence? Why buy, and carry around, an mp3 player, when you already have a device with a headphone port?

You mean your smartphone/tablet?

MP3 players and ereaders are specialized devices. By definition, they are not meant for convergence. The whole point of an ereader is that it doesn't waste time doing anything other than focus on reading. If you want a converged device, there are lots of them. Headphone ports on ereaders were an experiment in TTS which failed. Ereaders don't really need to have them, and certainly should not pander to people who are trying to turn their ereader into an MP3 player or a smartphone. If you listen to more than a few occasional music tracks/audiobooks, you should get a device meant to handle both/it.

Honestly, this reminds me of another loon somewhere who is convinced that what the world really needs and wants is an Android-based, bluetooth-enabled 10" e-ink ereader so that he can use it as a computer monitor!!

[Hrafn]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Perhaps I should've been clearer. Put the books on your other device too. It's that simple.

Perhaps I should've been clearer: stop telling other people how to use their eReaders!

Clear enough for you?

It is far more "simple" to have it on a removable card. That way you can always move it around, even when you are not in a position to copy your library onto a new device.

...but it certainly is not the disaster you seem to feel it is...

When did I state or imply that I felt that this would be a "disaster"? WHEN?

You are YET AGAIN simply putting words in my mouth.

...your Grand Criteria for what an ereader should be...

I don't remember stating that my reasons for preferring an independent eReader manufacturer was in any way a "Grand Criteria".

You are YET AGAIN simply putting words in my mouth.

...and there is no good reason for any ereader manufacturer to raise the cost of production by adding in a feature that the vast majority of their customers will not use...

Then isn't it a remarkable coincidence that most independent manufacturers include one, whereas the manufacturers who are big retailers don't?

[Ad nauseam repetition of already-rebutted drivel omitted.]

I can imagine it. I simply believe it is a neurosis, which hardly makes it reasonable.

Obviously I needed to knit-pick-proof my original first sentence:

The point is just because you cannot imagine why somebody would [reasonably]want more than 3GB does not mean that nobody reasonably could.

I would have thought that the first "reasonably" was implicit in the second, but some people, it would seem, need things to be completely nailed down or they will find some way to (intentionally) misinterpret its obvious meaning.

You mean your smartphone/tablet?

Unlike you, I don't make unnecessary assumptions, like that people must have a smartphone or tablet with them, so could not possibly want to play audio on their eReader.

MP3 players and ereaders are specialized devices. By definition, they are not meant for convergence. The whole point of an ereader is that it doesn't waste time doing anything other than focus on reading. If you want a converged device, there are lots of them. Headphone ports on ereaders were an experiment in TTS which failed. Ereaders don't really need to have them, and certainly should not pander to people who are trying to turn their ereader into an MP3 player or a smartphone. If you listen to more than a few occasional music tracks/audiobooks, you should get a device meant to handle both/it.

I would suggest that an eReader that has both an audio port and audio-playing software is meant to play audio. But that is letting the facts inform me.

Honestly, this reminds me of another loon somewhere who is convinced that what the world really needs and wants is an Android-based, bluetooth-enabled 10" e-ink ereader so that he can use it as a computer monitor!!

Is it "honest" to compare somebody who has expressed a mild preference for, and has defended the rationality of, a feature offered by most independent manufacturers, to a "loon" who is pushing a very specific and idiosyncratic design? (When have I ever stated or implied that an mSD slot is a deal-breaker for me?) No, it is blatantly dishonest!

Is it "honest" to repeatedly put inflated and histrionic words in somebody's mouth, in an attempt to discredit them? No, it is blatantly dishonest!

I'm afraid that the on-fire-pants appear to fit eschwartz perfectly.

[Hrafn]

Given that the topic of "an integrated bookstore", and deal-breakers have come up recently, I thought I'd remind readers of a genuine deal-breaker from my original post (neglected by everybody in harping on en dlessly about my final-and-least point):

Originally Posted by Hrafn

2. Directory-based navigation, and thus fully-customisable library structure

What has this got to do with "an integrated bookstore"? Take a look at the eReader matrix -- big eBook retailers tend not to implement this feature (in there as "Folders"). This is most probably because they assume that you'll be downloading the eBooks individually, mostly through their "integrated bookstore", and thus without any prior hierarchy. Independent manufacturers on the other hand do not make this assumption, and tend allow for you to load your eBooks in bulk, and thus potentially with a hierarchy already in place.

As I said before:

Some of us prefer an eReader designed with the reading experience being the sole priority (subject to technology and cost constraints, of course), rather than hardware and software designed, in part, to encourage readers to buy books from their bookstore, and to think of eReading as a closed ecosystem centered around the Retailer.

Now I'm sure that eschwartz will come along and tell me that this feature is completely unnecessary, and that I'm being completely irrational for wanting it. But I really don't give a rat's arse what limits he seeks to place on what other people may or may not want. This feature is a deal-breaker for me. I would also point out that as (i) a number of manufacturers have implemented it & (ii) the Matrix could be bothered having an explicit line for it, I'm not alone in giving it some importance.

[doubleshuffle]

[QuantumIguana]

Desire whatever features you want. But you might not get them.

[eschwartz]

Regarding directory-based navigation:

Using the Collections Manager hack for the Kindle, you can easily create collections in bulk based on the directory structure. Using calibre, you can natively create collections in bulk on a Kobo, based on configurable metadata columns, and do the same via a plugin for the Kindle. On the Kindle, you can use the hack to create nested collections, for multi-level sorting.

The difference between a collection and a directory listings is that collections are tags and you can file books in multiple collections, in addition to duplicating the directory structure.

So if you are willing to look into how to make your device work for you, your ereader becomes very powerful, beyond what the manufacturer has exposed to you. If you aren't, then you probably don't care what happens so long as you can read your book already, and don't want to think too much about it.

Personally, I prefer my Kindle's turbocharged collections to directory-based navigation, with the help of Ixtab, NiLuJe, and the rest of the amazing MobileRead dev team. It is so much more powerful. Why anyone would settle for directory-based navigation is beyond me.

Either way, though, the Kindle has equivalent (or debatably greater and more powerful) options, and so does the Kobo to a lesser extent, since I don't think anyone has figured out nested collections on a Kobo -- but I don't follow the Kobo news, so I could easily be wrong. With the Kobo it would be a tradeoff -- multiple collections per book vs. multi-level collections. So the Kindle's sorting should not be a deal-breaker. At least in this regard, and you already know my opinion on how much the bookstore distracts from reading.

[jersysman]

This was good entertainment at the start, but it quickly became non-productive.

[Hrafn]

Directory-based navigation is multi-level hierarchical, allowing for efficient tree-based navigational structures, like author/series (or even genre/author/series, if your collection got sufficiently large). When a number of manufacturers fully implement this feature, I see no reason to buy an eReader that would require me to hack it in order to imperfectly emulate this feature.

I had thought that this thread was for finding out what different things people who buy different brands of eReaders are after. But apparently it is for eschwartz the boldly underlined, the One True Authority on the Correct Way to Use an eReader, to lecture those who have different preferences or priorities on why they are "totally wrong" (generally based upon a caricatured 'straw man' of their actual opinions).

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Hrafn

Directory-based navigation is multi-level hierarchical, allowing for efficient tree-based navigational structures, like author/series (or even genre/author/series, if your collection got sufficiently large). When a number of manufacturers fully implement this feature, I see no reason to buy an eReader that would require me to hack it in order to imperfectly emulate this feature.

For me, a strictly directory based navigation scheme is too limiting. I like to have my books sorted by author, genre, series, and year read. With collections, this is easy to do--I have one collection for each author, one for each genre, one for each series, and one for each year, and a book can be in multiple collections at the same time without having to have multiple copies of the file on my reader.

So with your example of "genre/author/series" as a folder structure, what would you do if you wanted to read a specific author who writes in different genres? Would you need to have a copy of the book in both the "genre/author" tree and the main "author" folder? Or would you just not have an author folder above the genre folders?

PS: Note that I said "For me" above. Please don't think that I am telling you that you MUST do it this way, or that mine is the best way for everyone. I am simply telling you why I like collections better.

Shari