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Old 01-22-2014, 03:36 PM   #61
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We seem to disagree as to whether this is a bug. A decision not to support downloads that could easily not work with most reader software is, to me, not a bug.
First, that's not properly their decision to make. They promote themselves as selling books that you can read on multiple platforms, not being locked into the Kobo ecosystem. The lack of a download button directly contradicts that.

Second, even if you accept that they should make that decision, then they need to make it very clear that when buying the affected books, you must use their apps/readers to access them. They do not currently do so.

Third, their help pages make no mention of the fact that some books are locked into the Kobo ecosystem. They just say to click the blue button and download it. There's no hint of the possibility that such a button may not exist.
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:44 PM   #62
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First, that's not properly their decision to make. They promote themselves as selling books that you can read on multiple platforms, not being locked into the Kobo ecosystem. The lack of a download button directly contradicts that.
Out of a perhaps morbid curiosity, who do you feel should be making the decisions at Kobo? Hold a poll? To me, it's their company and their decisions to make. Whether I agree with even a majority of those decisions? Now that is my choice to make.

As for the content, say you download the Catto Creations I Love to Doodle ebook as an epub -- I downloaded it for a great-niece from iBooks and then downloaded it from Catto's web page to play with. You open it on your ereader and it looks like crap. Do you complain to Catto Creations? Or do you complain to Kobo? Given their customer "service" record, you want to increase that workload?

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Second, even if you accept that they should make that decision, then they need to make it very clear that when buying the affected books, you must use their apps/readers to access them. They do not currently do so.
You can open a non-DRMed Kobo ebook with an epub2 ebook reader though locating it and renaming it is a bit of fun. Not to mention that the ebook may not display quite as intended if it uses epub3 features.

I would prefer if they gave more information on their site when purchasing a book about the ebook format, DRM, etc. but not that big a deal for me.

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Third, their help pages make no mention of the fact that some books are locked into the Kobo ecosystem. They just say to click the blue button and download it. There's no hint of the possibility that such a button may not exist.
Unlike most other ereaders, Kobo does have a renderer capable of handling epub3 publications. To use that renderer requires the ebook be renamed as .kepub.epub. Most of the other modifications that need to be done such as the cover image metadata change is already part of a compliant epub3 ebook -- I don't count adding a few thousand spans as a needed modification. So Kobo can sell you an epub3 ebook and have it display more or less properly in the ACCESS renderer. Now you download the .epub version and it becomes a crapshoot as to how it looks on your ereader. Not so fine and good. Time to contact customer service and demand a refund because the ebook looked like crap.

Regards,
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:28 PM   #63
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Out of a perhaps morbid curiosity, who do you feel should be making the decisions at Kobo? Hold a poll? To me, it's their company and their decisions to make. Whether I agree with even a majority of those decisions? Now that is my choice to make.
Out of perhaps a similarly morbid curiosity, do you feel that food companies should be able to make the decision of whether or not to list the ingredients of their products?

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Do you complain to Catto Creations? Or do you complain to Kobo?
Catto created and formatted the book, so they bear the responsibility for making sure they're distributing a usable format.

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I would prefer if they gave more information on their site when purchasing a book about the ebook format, DRM, etc. but not that big a deal for me.
Meanwhile, I consider proper labeling a Very Big Deal. Customers have a fundamental right to know what they're buying, and companies do not have a right to conceal that information from them.

As a company, Kobo acts in two roles: a bookseller and an ereader manufacturer. The very first claim on their "about the company" page is a dedication to reader choice:

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Open Platform

Kobo believes people should be able to read on their terms. Our open platform, which supports the most popular formats including EPUB and PDF, allows readers to buy and read digital content from a variety of sources.
(Red emphasis mine.) Read that first sentence, and tell me how "we're not going to tell you what format you're buying or if you can download it before you buy it" aligns with that stated value.

Their Customer Care department actually tried to tell me that these weren't even EPUBs at all, and that's why there was no download button...
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:47 PM   #64
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Their Customer Care department actually tried to tell me that these weren't even EPUBs at all, and that's why there was no download button...
Regarding your last comment, have you tried to read the books you can't download in the Kobo app on a tablet. I tried on my iPad this week. I noticed that they don't show up under Books when sorting your library but do show up under All which is odd. I'm curious if anyone else has noticed the same thing.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:57 PM   #65
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Regarding your last comment, have you tried to read the books you can't download in the Kobo app on a tablet. I tried on my iPad this week. I noticed that they don't show up under Books when sorting your library but do show up under All which is odd. I'm curious if anyone else has noticed the same thing.
I have, and mine shows up under "Books".
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:13 PM   #66
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Regarding your last comment, have you tried to read the books you can't download in the Kobo app on a tablet.
Oh, they'll download through a sync just fine, and they show up in Books. I just don't appreciate being forced to rely on the Kobo app, which I don't particularly like in the first place.

If push came to shove, I could let their software download them to my PC and use obok to liberate them for archival - but I shouldn't have to go to those lengths. I can archive DRM-protected EPUBs (and PDFs) without cracking that protection, just by downloading them with ADE and copying them to another folder. All I'm saying is that I ought to be able to do that with all my Kobo purchases, and I shouldn't have to wonder about whether I'll be able to back up my purchases before making them. (When was the last time you went to the store, bought something, and were told you couldn't leave the building with it?)
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:08 PM   #67
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Out of perhaps a similarly morbid curiosity, do you feel that food companies should be able to make the decision of whether or not to list the ingredients of their products?
Hmmmm.... can an ebook trigger a life-threatening allergy? From arguing apples and oranges, we are now arguing apples and coal? BTW, while food ingredients mandated by law to be listed on the packaging, how many times do you see the ingredients listed in your local grocery stores flyer? Oddly, something I admire about Amazon.ca where they do attempt to include the nutrition and ingredient portions of the package labeling in their images for a product though at times, I have wondered about their preference for the French language ingredient list.


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Catto created and formatted the book, so they bear the responsibility for making sure they're distributing a usable format.
Their ebook is in a usable format -- for an epub3 compliant ebook. Azardi opens it happily, the Kobo/ACCESS renderer opens it happily, iBooks opens it happily. And if you really believe that the customer is going to complain to Catto and not Kobo, I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing.

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Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
Meanwhile, I consider proper labeling a Very Big Deal. Customers have a fundamental right to know what they're buying, and companies do not have a right to conceal that information from them.
What right to life does a person drowning in the middle of the Pacific ocean have? Over the years, I have grown truly tired of those who argue everything they want is a "fundamental right". After reading about a court case, where it was argued that using Facebook was a "fundamental right", asking me to believe that anything is a fundamental right is going to take a rather large amount of persuasion.

I would like Kobo to supply more information. I don't believe that I have a "fundamental right" to that information. I suspect that if enough of their customers request that information, they can be pressured into making it available. If you want to make it a "right", pressure your government into making publishing that information a requirement.

Regards,
David
Last edited by DNSB; 01-23-2014 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:21 PM   #68
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I would like Kobo to supply more information. I don't believe that I have a "fundamental right" to that information. I suspect that if enough of their customers request that information, they can be pressured into making it available. If you want to make it a "right", pressure your government into making publishing that information a requirement.
I believe my government does (we have pretty good consumer protection, on paper at least). Companies are required to disclose material information about purchases before the sale. Since Kobo does advertise epub downloads, and that their ebooks work on other ADE-compatible devices, there is a problem.

"Digital Editions can read all of the book formats offered in the Kobo Store. [...]

If you use any of Kobo's free reading apps or a Kobo eReader, you may never need to use Digital Editions at all. Kobo's reading apps and eReader can automatically download most books from the Kobo Store, and update your library with them.

The exceptions are when:

You want to read eBooks from another store or from a library on a Kobo eReader;

You buy Adobe DRM PDFs from the Kobo Store and want to read them on a Kobo eReader;

You want to read books from the Kobo Store on an eReader from another company.

In these cases you will need to use Digital Editions to open your books and transfer them to your eReader."

"our goal is to bring you the eBooks you are looking for, help you purchase them quickly and get you reading right away - anytime, anyplace, on any device."
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:28 PM   #69
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Strongest pressure for chage would be return bought books that that are wrong format not compatible with your reader. This should quickly return indicating type of epub book in your cart before purchasing.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:37 PM   #70
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Their ebook is in a usable format -- for an epub3 compliant ebook. Azardi opens it happily, the Kobo/ACCESS renderer opens it happily, iBooks opens it happily. And if you really believe that the customer is going to complain to Catto and not Kobo, I have a bridge you might be interested in purchasing.
Hey, you asked what I would do, not some random customer. I answered accordingly. If you wanted me to answer a different question, you should have asked that question instead.

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What right to life does a person drowning in the middle of the Pacific ocean have? Over the years, I have grown truly tired of those who argue everything they want is a "fundamental right". After reading about a court case, where it was argued that using Facebook was a "fundamental right", asking me to believe that anything is a fundamental right is going to take a rather large amount of persuasion.
Ah, so you want to twist this thread into a vague discussion of your own political hobby horse instead of a specific discussion of a technical issue. Nope, not participating.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:57 PM   #71
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I believe my government does (we have pretty good consumer protection, on paper at least). Companies are required to disclose material information about purchases before the sale. Since Kobo does advertise epub downloads, and that their ebooks work on other ADE-compatible devices, there is a problem.

[URL="http://www.kobobooks.com/ade"]"Digital Editions can read all of the book formats offered in the Kobo Store. [...]
Advertising epub downloads does not mean that every ebook is going to be available in an epub2 format.

As for ADE, that may have been true a few years back but the times have changed. The current version of ADE was designed for epub2 compliant (more or less...) ebooks. It does not handle the changes between the epub2 and epub3 standards very well. Nor does it deal with several of the formats that are shown as tablet/iOS/Android only on the Kobo site.

You might want to take a look at the number of complaints that B&N has received about their PagePerfect NOOK books from people who purchased ebooks that did not say PagePerfect in the title/information/whatever and then realized they looked like crap. Not much information about PagePerfect but from the two examples I've seen, it looks suspiciously like an epub3 fixed layout document.

As another example, the local library has an ntroduction to Asian cooking ebook. When I downloaded it with ADE (download link says DRM epub) and looked at it in ADE, the text and image layout stank, titles were showing up in the middle of pages, there was no table of contents, etc. Open the epub file with 7Zip and checking the contents showed that it was an epub3 file. I tried reading it in an epub3 renderer and it actually looked quite good -- even had an table of contents and popup notes.

As a freebie from the library, this didn't bother me. If I had purchased the book from Kobo, downloaded it and found this out, I would have requesting a refund.

Regards,
David
Last edited by DNSB; 01-24-2014 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:26 PM   #72
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Hey, you asked what I would do, not some random customer. I answered accordingly. If you wanted me to answer a different question, you should have asked that question instead.
Your choice as to your decisions. My choice to find your complaints amusing.

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Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
Ah, so you want to twist this thread into a vague discussion of your own political hobby horse instead of a specific discussion of a technical issue. Nope, not participating.
Hmmm... I seem to remember that you were the one who dragged "fundamental right" into this discussion. Exactly how does that match up with your claim to "a specific discussion of a technical issue"?

Regards,
David
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:31 PM   #73
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Strongest pressure for change would be return bought books that that are wrong format not compatible with your reader. This should quickly return indicating type of epub book in your cart before purchasing.
Voting with your wallet is, for most companies, the most effective tactic. As far as I recall, there was never an indicator of just what type of epub file it was but as epub3 becomes more popular, it is a piece of information that is becoming necessary.

Regards,
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Old 01-25-2014, 12:55 AM   #74
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Bought this book:
Word Up!
ISBN 9780985820312

It didn't come with the download link. This is my maiden encounter with the problem. I'm just not going to be too enthusiastic buying from Kobo from this point on.
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Old 01-25-2014, 07:19 AM   #75
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I've just looked at the majority of the books people have posted here, and guess what... I can now tell from the web-site which books will have no ePub format available for download.

If the list of valid devices does NOT include Blackberry then it does seems to be a book WITHOUT an ePub download available for it.
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