Tablets won

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by jbjb

"Bogus" probably came across as more dismissive than I meant - apologies if that caused offence - what I was referring to is the argument some people make that eye strain is caused by light being shone into your eyes by the backlight, and that in some way light reaching your eyes via reflection is different and more benign. Direct light bad, reflected light good.

Reflection can indeed change the nature of the light (e.g. it can be polarized to a greater or lesser extent depending on how near the angle of incidence is to the Brewster angle), but the eye can't detect polarization so it seems unlikely this could cause a problem.

I do believe that at least the vast majority of eye strain issues with backlit LCDs is down to inappropriate brightness.

/JB

I take off my glasses and hold the e-ink very close to my face. And no tablet I have ever had or seen in a store feels as comfortable as e-ink, at any brightness setting. I do read on my phone when nothing else is available, but given the choice it will always be e-ink over any current generation LCD. But we have been through this here a 1000 times. I can't understand the missionary zeal of the LCD readers, why care to convince others? For novels it is e-ink for most of us here, as every poll has clearly shown.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

I can't understand the missionary zeal of the LCD readers, why care to convince others?

It's not a case of missionary zeal (apologies if it came across as such). As it happens, I'm an eInk reader.

It's simply that there's an interesting point to discuss here - if there *is* a difference in the nature of the light, what is it? I'm stating my opinion to provide input to that discussion, in a spirit of interested scientific inquiry, not in an attempt to convince for any missionary purpose!

/JB

[Teknikal]

Reason I eventually bought a tablet was not being able to stand Windows 8 I went out looking for a new PC and could find nothing with a good graphics card or without Windows 8, so I ended up buying two Nexus 7's I bought one for my dad because his laptop battery was next to useless.

For reading I do actually prefer it over my Sony reader in everything except battery life but I can have marathon reading sessions with it anyway.

[patrickt]

I love the reasons people give for buying a tablet. Reading is rarely a significant reason. Tablets are great for playing games, surfing the net, showing off photos and yes, you can read on them.

E-Ink devices are for, wait for it, reading books. Yes you can play a few games but they are made for reading books. They aren't make for game playing and as game devices they can't compete with tablets. They can't compete with tablets for surfing the net, watching movies, and collecting porn, either.

So, more tablets are being sold than e-readers. Readers have never been the majority so why would a device for reading be more popular than a device for playing games.

The original poster seemed to assume that all tablets are sold for reading books. Poor thing, I'm sure he's doing the best he can.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jbjb

I've had a sales assistant try to convince me to buy an expensive HDMI cable because it would give "more saturated reds" than the cheap cable I was buying. This is clearly garbage.

/JB

Right. But I've been in forum discussions with folks who over-extrapolate that to the point of thinking that just because there may be no performance difference between a decent well made digital signal cable, and a stupidly-overpriced monster-ous cable, that there must also be no difference between a decent cable, and $1 bulk cable with poor shielding and bad solder joints. More than once I've seen people claim that those things don't matter in digital signals because "it's all just ones an zeros." They do not seem be aware of the fact that those ones and zeros are carried through cables in the form of purely ordinary, and sometimes quite sensitive, electrical signals.

Regarding computer data, real-time D-to-A streaming has different issues than, say, a block mode file transfer. A block transfer can do complicated check-sums, resend entire blocks and retry several times to ensure there is a bit-perfect copy at the end.
Realtime music and video playback is far more subject to small errors, but also more tolerant of them. For example, there is a big difference in the way audio is played from a CD in a standard CD player, compared to the way the same data might be read off the same CD when copied onto a PC.

Originally Posted by jbjb

if there *is* a difference in the nature of the light, what is it? I'm stating my opinion to provide input to that discussion, in a spirit of interested scientific inquiry, not in an attempt to convince for any missionary purpose!
/JB

As a sometimes-photographer and lighting tech, I'm mostly aware of the subjective effect, not the true science, but I think it mostly has to do with amounts of diffusion, the different amount of specular reflection, the effect of scatter from angles of illumination off of imperfect surfaces of different materials, and the effect of those things on the illumination levels not only on, but surrounding the text and the contrast between them.

[RHWright]

Originally Posted by leebase

...it's clear that the market has spoken ...

The market doesn't always pick a superior product or act wisely. Often, it is a "good enough" solution that is a lowest common denominator, one-size-fits-all solution.

The technology landscape is littered with good/great products that don't find or hold onto a market. BetaMax. Palm/WebOS. Sega Dreamcast.

The "market" also tends to favor cheapness, ease of access, and other factors over pure technological superiority.

Value of any product or service is individually subject, but it's why we get dominance (more generally, not just in technology) by WalMart, McDonald's, etc. and other low-pricetag retailers.

Tablets may "win" in the end, not because they are better readers, but because they offer an overall value in cost, flexibility, features, etc. that the big pool of consumers value.

Personally, I value the reading quality on my e-Ink reader. If this does become a niche market, I hope someone stills sees the value in serving it.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by RHWright

The market doesn't always pick a superior product or act wisely. Often, it is a "good enough" solution that is a lowest common denominator, one-size-fits-all solution.

The technology landscape is littered with good/great products that don't find or hold onto a market. BetaMax. Palm/WebOS. Sega Dreamcast.

The "market" also tends to favor cheapness, ease of access, and other factors over pure technological superiority.

Value of any product or service is individually subject, but it's why we get dominance (more generally, not just in technology) by WalMart, McDonald's, etc. and other low-pricetag retailers.

Tablets may "win" in the end, not because they are better readers, but because they offer an overall value in cost, flexibility, features, etc. that the big pool of consumers value.

Personally, I value the reading quality on my e-Ink reader. If this does become a niche market, I hope someone stills sees the value in serving it.

Actually, what the market almost always selects is the product with the lowest perceived cost/benefit ratio, also sometimes described as the most 'bang for the buck'. The word perceived is important as the market is often distorted by advertising.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by RHWright

The market doesn't always pick a superior product or act wisely. Often, it is a "good enough" solution that is a lowest common denominator, one-size-fits-all solution.

The technology landscape is littered with good/great products that don't find or hold onto a market. BetaMax. Palm/WebOS. Sega Dreamcast.

The "market" also tends to favor cheapness, ease of access, and other factors over pure technological superiority.

Value of any product or service is individually subject, but it's why we get dominance (more generally, not just in technology) by WalMart, McDonald's, etc. and other low-pricetag retailers.

Tablets may "win" in the end, not because they are better readers, but because they offer an overall value in cost, flexibility, features, etc. that the big pool of consumers value.

Personally, I value the reading quality on my e-Ink reader. If this does become a niche market, I hope someone stills sees the value in serving it.

Hits the nail on the head. In the end, the product that has the lowest price, is the easiest to use or does more almost always wins, even if there are other products around that are clearly better at the task at hand.

Betamax / VHS
IDE / SCSI
USB / Firewire
Trinitron / "Bulb" tubes
IPS & (S)PVA / TN LCD-panels
Organ / Keyboard

In all of those cases the first product is clearly the most powerful, but the second is clearly cheaper, easier to use, or both, and thus the second product wins.

"The Market" seems to favor mediocrity, EXCEPT when a product brings some sort of status with it. Then, everybody wants it, regardless of price, features (or even, lack thereof), or alternatives.

[leebase]

The part of this debate I always found fascinating/frustrating was the insistence that reading on a tablet was terrible on they eyes. I read on my iPad for hours and hours on end. No issues. Reading on my tablet or phone at night, in bed, with "night mode" on my app is far and away the best reading experience I've had bar none. And it's a very common use case for me while reading out in the hot sun at the beach is something I want to do once in a blue moon.

That some people love and prefer eInk was never in doubt. My guess was always that the overall market would not care. The advantages of smart phones and tablets for reading are just overwhelming. Even just considering the reading part. Considering the "everything else" and it's no contest at all....from a 'total market' perspective (not any particular person's preference).

Just considering reading....eInk is hands down better for bright light reading and battery life. One USED to be able to say size and weight, but large screen smartphones and 7" tablets have removed this major advantage. eInk devices are cheaper, though folks have a smarphone anyway so for them the reading part is "free".

The reading experience on a tablet app is just superior. Much faster. Color. Great support for PDF, for comics. Apps like Zite and Flipboard are amazing for reading news. Have an iPad? You can still read kindle books, kobo books, Nook books, Sony books all with apps created by the book sellers themselves. No need for monkeying around with the computer and files. Same with Android tablets.

The contrast on a tablet/phone is better as is the resolution.

I started wanting a Kindle when it was $400. But I was reading just fine on my iPhone. The iPad came out and the kindle dropped to $250. Now Kindles can be had for less than a hundred bucks...and I may eventually pick one up for that rare time I go on vacation and will read outside at the beach.

Of course, my thoughts are just mine. I always thought the day would come when it would be obvious that the market would speak and we'd see. It has. Despite the anecdotes which both sides have....the market is showing that eInk devices have had their day and were but a transitional technology and are now a shrinking niche.

As the article stated...of those who read...more read on a tablet. And the younger the more true.

[jersysman]

Originally Posted by Chi Cygni

*won't rise to the bait*

^This
+1

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jersysman

^This
+1

Might as well stay tuned, or you guys will miss some fun tangents about home theater and stuff!

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by ApK

Regarding computer data, real-time D-to-A streaming has different issues than, say, a block mode file transfer. A block transfer can do complicated check-sums, resend entire blocks and retry several times to ensure there is a bit-perfect copy at the end.

There's no reason that, say, a CD player can't do the same thing. For streaming, latency is a non-issue, so there's plenty of time to sort things out. In fact, many mobile players (before they became solid-state) did buffer, error-check and re-read if required. Two-way communication, such as VoIP, does have latency constraints, so there isn't any scope for e.g. retransmission, but that's a different story.

The fact is that in most circumstances, it's genuinely not an issue. I've had reason to look at bit-error rates on HDMI links (when writing device drivers for HDMI chips in embedded systems), and while not all cables were perfect they generally either worked with negligible error rate or just failed disastrously and obviously. If you get a cable that works, you're fine; if you get one that doesn't you really know about it and change it. Interestingly, I noticed no correlation at all between price of cable and the chance of it not working.

/JB

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Hits the nail on the head. In the end, the product that has the lowest price, is the easiest to use or does more almost always wins, even if there are other products around that are clearly better at the task at hand.

Betamax / VHS
IDE / SCSI
USB / Firewire
Trinitron / "Bulb" tubes
IPS & (S)PVA / TN LCD-panels
Organ / Keyboard

No, you are missing an important factor: The "task at hand" is often not what the proponents of the failed technology think it is. This is particularly true in the case of stuff like Beta/VHS. Beta had superior image and color stability. So everyone one says it was "better." But it was never a competition for best color quality. They were not competing in the video production space.
The task at hand was, in large part, watching movies at home. An important part of that task is conveniently having a whole movie on one tape, plus home NTSC TVs usually sucked anyway, so Betamax was the INFERIOR SOLUTION for the actual task, and the one part of it's technology that made it superior was of marginalized value to the average rabbit-ear wielding TV watcher.

That's true in many cases where people claim the market chose mediocrity because of price or whatever. What it really turns out to be is that the market chose the BEST SOLUTION FOR THE TASK, even if a competing solution may have at one or two superior features.
It's also true, and not a sign of any flaw, that a product has to be affordable to succeed in the mass market, and that is often a legitimate part of the task: allow me to afford it. Now a days that is often accomplished by packing high-end features in to cheap, poorly made disposable products. Back in the pre-globalization days, it often meant keep the build quality up, compromise in the features and technology.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by leebase

The part of this debate I always found fascinating/frustrating was the insistence that reading on a tablet was terrible on they eyes. I read on my iPad for hours and hours on end. No issues.

*YOU* don't have issues. If you had my eyes, even trying to lead a normal life is an issue. (Yes, I could let myself be labelled handicapped, but I don't want to.)

I hate reading off of a screen for long periods of time.

That some people love and prefer eInk was never in doubt. My guess was always that the overall market would not care.

The overall market does not read... except maybe very occasionally.

Just considering reading....eInk is hands down better for bright light reading and battery life.

I'm out and about in public transport daily, in all kinds of lighting conditions, from almost dark up to blindingly bright in summer. Especially in the latter situation, e-ink is a godsend. I dread having to call someone, because I can't actually read my phone's screen.

The reading experience on a tablet app is just superior.

I agree on that one. Most e-readers don't come even close to the customizability of an app. That's why I would love an el-cheapo e-ink android tablet/reader.

The market is showing that eInk devices have had their day and were but a transitional technology and are now a shrinking niche.

Doesn't matter. There will be e-ink readers for a long, long time. The home organ is a shrinking niche since the 80's, and still Wersi, Böhm, Lowrey, Orla, Ringway, Roland, Yamaha, and even the venerable Hammond still exist; even though they are not all active in the same regions in the world. There is also a smathering of Hammond-like clones if ever there was one (Nord, Diversi, Hamichord, VB3, KeyBDuo, obviously Hammond is now itself a clone, and I'm likely forgetting a few).

People have been screaming that "the organ is dead" since the 80's, but I still hear them daily, especially the Hammonds (or Hammond-like clones, of course); even in friggin' Dutch pop music.

I haven't even talked about classical organs. There are more manufacturers and models than I can count; some even completely virtualised such as Hauptwerk.

For most hobbyists, the organ was replaced by the much cheaper and easier to use, more versatile and mostly automatic keyboard. Even so, people who want to play organ still can, especially if you want to play "pure" organ (i.e., Hammond or classical organ).

So it will be with the e-ink reader.

They will dwindle to maybe 3-5 manufacturers and then exist in their niche for a *VERY* long time to come.

As the article stated...of those who read...more read on a tablet. And the younger the more true.

Most young people I know don't even read. I don't consider reading the news or forums on the internet reading.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by jbjb

Interestingly, I noticed no correlation at all between price of cable and the chance of it not working.
/JB

I've not made a study of it, but my personal observation of USB and HDMI cables I encounter seems to suggest that cables in the $5-$15 range have sturdier materials, better stress relief, and better solder joints then <$5 bulk cables like those that come with a lot of gear, and I'd need to see a lot of data to convince me that that wouldn't make a difference in reliability.
I have also noted HDMI cables (of the proper spec, supposedly) that work in some devices but not others.
With USB cables, I have more than once encountered cables that SEEM to work...device detect, etc, but the device doesn't work reliably, and replacing the cable solved the issue.

What were we talking about, again?

ApK