Publishers STILL doing their best to screw the libraries?

[sadievan]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

To set the conditions for ownership. If I buy an ebook, it's mine. I should be allowed to loan it as many times as I want or to sell it.

I would add loan for as long as I want. 14 days is too short for me.

Carol

[speakingtohe]

Double post

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

In some ways, libraries are in direct competition with bookstores. They provide the same products and they do so by very similar means. The big difference though is clientele. Libraries provide access to a resource, but at a cost. Since it is shared, you have to wait. Since other people are making purchasing decisions, you can't always read what you want. You also don't get to add the book to your private collection. This distinction is why libraries will never undermine bookstores, even when they carry ebooks.

I am a big fan of libraries and have been a heavy library user all of my life. And while I could not always read what I wanted, I could with rare exceptions (very small libraries or no local library) always find something I wanted to read.

I have never been in a bookstore that had everything I could possibly want in stock, so one often had to wait sometimes weeks or longer and pay an additional fee to get a special item.

I can agree that libraries provide competition for bookstores, and it might be construed as unfair competition by some.

After all the library does not have to show a profit, funding is provided by municipal governmet in most cases in Canada at least. Also most libraries in my experience are located in prime locations, that the smaller bookstores cannot afford.

Libraries can afford to provide other services as well, such as internet access, computer lessons, childrens group activities and lessons (free childcare for some) that the average bookstore cannot offer. And the books are available at very low rates.

Libraries in Canada are mainly funded by property taxes. The average property owner's or renter's tax going to the library are about $20 a year as far as I can determine by looking at various mill rates. I myself have borrowed as many as 20 books in a month and have requested many books by inter-library loans. What independent business can compete with that?

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

Now I agree with you about libraries being public service. Public services may involve inconveniences. The problem is when the inconvenience becomes too great it ceases to serve the people who it is intended for. Families who don't have the financial means to buy books are unlikely to have the time to visit a physical library on a regular basis, while wealthier families can buy books without leaving their own home. So while access to literacy is remaining static for the former group, the access to literacy is increasing for the latter.

Affluent or not, if a person wants to read, many will find the time to visit the library. Wealthier families have always had had more access to the good things in life, and possibly use the library less than the less afluent. To my knowledge little has been changed in that regard.

Acess to literacy does not start and end with the libraries. It is like the chicken and the egg. If you can't read, or don't like to read, you will be less likely to use the library or even want to, and more likely to be less affluent. Perhaps you would be even less likely to have an ebook reader? If you can read and enjoy reading you are less likely to be poor, but it is not guarenteed. The easiest way to becoming rich is being born into a wealthy family. Next to that is work and/or luck. Some great fortunes were founded by illiterates, and literate people have gone from wealth to backruptcy.

Blaming a small segment of society, such as the publishers for the inequalties of the world seems a bit farfetched. Schools, negligent or abusive parents, lack of willpower, lack of motivation or abilty (being born with Downs syndrome for an extreme example) play a much larger role in literacy and advancement in life than not being able to read the latest bestseller the very day it is on the market.

And speaking for myself, and many people I know who are less than affluent, some would be very resentful of being classified of as in danger of becoming serfs just because they did or didn't want to read. Especially those who for whatever reason don't want to read (A large segment of the population, affluent or not) and would rather do other things instead. Most would reply, if told that libraries not having ebooks is making them serfs (or downtrodden masses etc. ) ,would reply with a puzzled look or a sharp stick in the eye.

Helen

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by BWinmill

To be honest though, my biggest concern is property rights. For normal transactions, such as the purchase of a book, it is dangerous to allow the seller to set terms beyond those provided by law, such as copyright. If this continues to happen, we will effectively find ourselves with no property rights. If this continues to happen, we will not be much better off than serfs of days gone by. (Note: I'm looking at the bigger picture here. It will take more than books to tip the balance. Alas, this notion of licensing in place of selling is frightfully common these days.)

This one will be short. What law are we talking about that the terms are beyond? I am totally not understanding what you are saying. The copyright law does not seem to address any issues regarding copyright and library lending and do you mean property rights in general or ebook property rights. Are publisher's to be ranked up there with sumlords because they will only allow an ebook to be leant out more 27 times? hm.....

Helen

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Libraries in Canada are mainly funded by property taxes. The average property owner's or renter's tax going to the library are about $20 a year as far as I can determine by looking at various mill rates. I myself have borrowed as many as 20 books in a month and have requested many books by inter-library loans. What independent business can compete with that?

Helen

I think you are off by almost an order of magnitude on how much libraries cost - the average homeowner pays $113 annually in property taxes for the Toronto public library; this is roughly similar to what equivalent libraries cost in the US.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

I think you are off by almost an order of magnitude on how much libraries cost - the average homeowner pays $113 annually in property taxes for the Toronto public library; this is roughly similar to what equivalent libraries cost in the US.

You are absolutely right. I meant to say $200 a year and that could very well be incorrect. My math is not always the best and of course homeowner grants lower some property taxes. I was using these figures.

http://www.sooke.ca/EN/main/governme...perty_tax.html

Helen

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by sadievan

I would add loan for as long as I want. 14 days is too short for me.

Carol

Agreed

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

You are absolutely right. I meant to say $200 a year and that could very well be incorrect. My math is not always the best and of course homeowner grants lower some property taxes. I was using these figures.

http://www.sooke.ca/EN/main/governme...perty_tax.html

Helen

That makes a lot more sense! $200 is about what I pay, although it may have gone down recently. I come out ahead, although I suspect that a lot of people don't.

[Fbone]

I received my property tax bill today. Library taxes only $69. Not a bad deal for me.

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by Fbone

I received my property tax bill today. Library taxes only $69. Not a bad deal for me.

That's a great deal. About 4.25% of our property taxes go to the library, which seems pretty reasonable.

[BeccaPrice]

our library is part of the school district, and money for it comes out of school district funding, not out of separate property taxes.

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by Andrew H.

That makes a lot more sense! $200 is about what I pay, although it may have gone down recently. I come out ahead, although I suspect that a lot of people don't.

Well my own library taxes are a lot less my strata unit is assessed at under 300,000 and my rates for 2011 were in the $70 range per month(homeowners grant) or $800-$900 per year.
http://www.cnv.org/c//data/2/401/201...on%20Sheet.pdf

For strata owners paying more than double the spending on all other is $53 per year (see above link) which as far as I can determine includes libraries(1), community centres(4) and city owned museums among other services, than I doubt I am actually paying $20 a year.

People with higher assessed residences pay more, and renters probably pay more as taxes are factored into rent and rental property rates are probably higher.

I did mean $200 but curiousity led me to attempt to figure out what I pay personally. Either figure is a bargain for me, but I might donate some money to the library as now I save both library fines and transportation costs, and of course the convenience adds value as well

Helen

[HarryT]

What's a "strata unit"?

[speakingtohe]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What's a "strata unit"?

What they call condominiums in British Columbia, Canada.

Helen