Is Smashwords the answer?

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by Redcard

You kind of have it backwards.

In the US, at least, where Smashwords is based, the Constitution all but bans the government from censoring except in very limited circumstances.

I'm Canadian. Our government has been known to censor. We even have laws against hate speech. Yet I am opposed to censorship; free speech is incredibly important.

From what you say, if only your government is required to respect free speech, that doesn't bode well for free speech.

Originally Posted by Redcard

Smashwords had a choice in this, and had one all along.

Agreed.

Frankly, I assume Smashwords has known all along, but simply doesn't care.

Smashwords is caving to PayPal on the one hand, while soliciting the help of Internet free speech activists like EFF to fight it. If Paypal wins, Smashwords cuts loose fringe ebooks (it no longer needs since it is now a player) yet gives the appearance of actually having done something. If EFF wins, Smashwords doesn't have to loose those niche markets, with the added bonus of looking like a hero. Win-win for Smashwords.

Both PayPal and Smashwords will do what they want so long as they make money. Neither will change policy without economic incentive.

I've looked at the whole world a lot differently since reading this http://culturalliberty.org/blog/index.php?id=271 and understanding the idea that if corporations were human, they would be sociopaths explains everything.

Originally Posted by Redcard

The excuse that not everyone reads TOS's is great for users like you and me, but for someone that bases their entire income on it.. is a very poor business decision.

Not necessarily. What is a TOS? Although a TOS is generally framed as though it were a legal agreement, it isn't. An agreement has two sides and can be negotiated. A TOS is a unilateral coersive instrument, not a legally binding contract. I haven't yet heard of any TOS being fought through the courts. I think mostly the TOS exists to scare users into doing what the issuer wants,

If I were to trust my business to PayPal, it could stomp me whenever it likes. But Smashwords isn't me, having become a very big gun in self publishing. There is a reasonable chance Smashwords will be able to fight off PayPal.

As self-publishing author and consumer, I too can decide who I will do business with. Personally, my job isn't to reform corporations, and I know that neither cares whether they get my business or not. I'm only one person, a mere gnat.

Still, my choice is to not go along. Other will choose to continue to do business with them, and I understand that. It is still very much a recession. Even if it wasn't, I wouldn't blame anyone for the choices they make. If we all had to make the same choice, it wouldn't be a choice any more. We all do the best we can.

[Verbena]

If you want to take part in the kindle select program, which means you will have a chance of promoting your book by free lending, you can't publish on smashwords within 90 days.

From my experience, smashwords better fits those who have not a specific e-reading device. And I guess, their readers are lesser than amazon, thus your title will have a better chance to be found. But usually, a lower price on smashword is better.

If you don't use kindle select, I don't see any reason not using smashwords. The software is great!

[VydorScope]

Originally Posted by LaurelRusswurm

Perhaps I don't understand capitalism. But then I grew up in a world where "the customer is always right" and governments actually made an attempt to keep corporations from screwing their citizens. Of course, in those days, there were civil rights protecting citizens from government abuses too.

It comes down to this, in America at least, the government is severely limited with regards to censorship. Any ground given on that point is very dangerous and most times fought pretty heavily.

However any private business can censor what they sell at will. The food store does not have to sell brand x of food stuff y if it does not want to. They sell what ever they feel is best in line with the business they want to conduct.


So Smash has a choice here, they can sell or not sell erotica. Pay Pal has a choice they can support the sale of , or not support the sale of erotica. That is their call, and not anyone else. Since they are partners in this endeavor, they have to come to an agreement between themselves and Smash has decided that having PayPal is a bigger benefit to their business then having the stuff PayPal does not want to support. That is their right and I have no issue with that because its the private companies deciding their own destiny.

Now, in a capitalistic system, the buyer gets to vote on this with their dollar. If you do not like this agreement that Smash and PayPal have, then do not do business with them. Under the American version of capitalism the government only gets involved when the corporation is perceived to be to powerful for the consumer to control with with their purchase decisions.

Hopefully that helps clear things up.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by LaurelRusswurm

"In case you haven't heard, about two weeks ago, PayPal contacted Smashwords and
gave us a surprise ultimatum: Remove all titles containing bestiality, rape
or incest, otherwise they threatened to deactivate our PayPal account. "
— Mark Corker email

I'm guessing the actual discussion was a bit more detailed than that!
They still have Bibles for sale, so it clearly isn't a blanket ban.

Oh, and:
http://www.smashwords.com/press/release/28
a) Smashwords clearly think this is just targetted at BR&I in an erotic context, as they are communicating to their erotic authors:

The following email was sent to all Smashwords authors/publishers/agents Monday, February 27 who have published erotica at Smashwords.

b) It isn't yet clear what is actually 'banned':

There's a sliver of hope that I might be able to obtain a more positive, less restrictive outcome than I communicated on Friday, yet it's unlikely we'll achieve the true result I want (no censorship) in the near term. Today, PayPal hinted at a more relaxed definition of prohibited content as, according to them [I'm paraphrasing], "probited boooks would be those for which rape, bestiality and incest are the major theme. If rape, bestiality and incest are incidental plot points, then that content might be allowable."

[QuantumIguana]

You have a buyer with money, and a seller with a product. If they can reach an agreement, they make the exchange. The money doesn't care what is exchanged. That's capitalism.

But when you introduce a third party which judges whether you are allowed to make the transaction, that looks less like capitalism. It illustrates a problem with our relationship with money in the internet age. Any third party which is in the business of facilitating transactions should be blind to what the product is. They aren't selling the product, they are simple directing money from the buyer to the seller.

[altworld]

Originally Posted by LaurelRusswurm

Ironically, even though my novel is not erotica, since it deals with rape, one of the subjects PayPal outlawed, I would not be allowed to sell it under the new Smashwords censorship policy anyway. One of the main reasons I elected to self publish was so I would make the decisions. Not Smashwords, or PayPal.

I think Paypal's problem is not rape as as subject matter to be explored, but rape written to excite, to ermm titillate, if you are exploring it as serious piece of work with the after effects that goes with it you will be fine.

In the end it is your market choice, good luck
Nick Davis

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by Verbena

If you want to take part in the kindle select program, which means you will have a chance of promoting your book by free lending, you can't publish on smashwords within 90 days.

Kindle Select also requires exclusivity, which means I would not be able to sell from my own site either. I might be able to loev with that, but I am also publishing with a Creative Commons (by-sa-nc) License, which I think would also disqualify on exclusivity.

Originally Posted by Verbena

From my experience, smashwords better fits those who have not a specific e-reading device.

Not necessarily. So far ePub format has worked in every web based and cell phone free reader I've tried.

Originally Posted by Verbena

If you don't use kindle select, I don't see any reason not using smashwords. The software is great!

My reason for not using Smashwords was that Smashwords will only pay writers through PayPal. I don't use PayPal. And now there is the censorship issue as well.

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Since they are partners in this endeavor, they have to come to an agreement between themselves and Smash has decided that having PayPal is a bigger benefit to their business then having the stuff PayPal does not want to support. That is their right and I have no issue with that because its the private companies deciding their own destiny.

Yes, this is a very important point: Smashwords values Paypal above it's authors.

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Now, in a capitalistic system, the buyer gets to vote on this with their dollar. If you do not like this agreement that Smash and PayPal have, then do not do business with them.

Absolutely: they can do what they like, and I don't have to deal with them.

But as both reader and writer, the dealbreaker for me is that Smashwords would choose to censor authors.

Originally Posted by VydorScope

Under the American version of capitalism the government only gets involved when the corporation is perceived to be to powerful for the consumer to control with with their purchase decisions.

Hopefully that helps clear things up.

Yes, thanks.

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

I'm guessing the actual discussion was a bit more detailed than that!

That may be, but I am not privvy to the negotiations, so I can only go by what I am told.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

They still have Bibles for sale, so it clearly isn't a blanket ban.

That may simply be an indication of prejudice.

Originally Posted by murraypaul

Oh, and:
http://www.smashwords.com/press/release/28
a) Smashwords clearly think this is just targetted at BR&I in an erotic context, as they are communicating to their erotic authors:

b) It isn't yet clear what is actually 'banned':

There's the rub. When you start getting into censorship, you start getting into subjective decisions based on individual tolerance.

When I was a teen, we were watching the Inspector Clousseau movie "A Shot In The Dark" when Clousseau went undercover (maybe in a nudist colony?) on TV. Anyway, he was walking around, supposedly nude, but for a strategically placed guitar. At that point my mother walked into the room and was horrified and turned the TV off. If my mother were to make the decisions as to what should be censored it would probably be very different than most of those who agree with the Smashwords decision. Censorship is never cut and dried.

Inconsistency is one of the bad things about censorship. Chilling effect is another. Free speech a third. Generally removing free choice from competent adults is never a good thing.

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by altworld

I think Paypal's problem is not rape as as subject matter to be explored, but rape written to excite, to ermm titillate, if you are exploring it as serious piece of work with the after effects that goes with it you will be fine.

In the end it is your market choice, good luck
Nick Davis

Not so long ago a book called "Speak" [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speak_%28novel%29 ] was singled out by pillars of the community who sought to ban it because they felt it was titillating.

Censorship is always subjective.

[LaurelRusswurm]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

You have a buyer with money, and a seller with a product. If they can reach an agreement, they make the exchange. The money doesn't care what is exchanged. That's capitalism.

But when you introduce a third party which judges whether you are allowed to make the transaction, that looks less like capitalism. It illustrates a problem with our relationship with money in the internet age. Any third party which is in the business of facilitating transactions should be blind to what the product is. They aren't selling the product, they are simple directing money from the buyer to the seller.

Exactly.

Playboy magazine is still for sale, yet I've never heard of any bank preventing a customer from subscribing to it. Playboy was at one time an empire. Last I heard there was even a Playboy Channel. I'll bet the corporation even has a business bank account.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by altworld

I think Paypal's problem is not rape as as subject matter to be explored, but rape written to excite, to ermm titillate,

Like in A Clockwork Orange, or Fanny Hill, or Venus in Furs, or, less famous works, Pin by Andrew Neiderman (also includes incest), My Sweet Audrina by VC Andrews (also underage)... of course, those last two are marketed as "thriller" or "horror" instead of erotica, as is Clockwork Orange, and the other two are "classics."

Is the real issue rape-for-titillation (a topic that fuels the fantasies of about 40% of women, so it's hardly a rare pervert's kink), or is it rape in books labeled 'erotica'?

if you are exploring it as serious piece of work with the after effects that goes with it you will be fine.

So... titillating the reader means it can't be a serious piece of work? There's no artistic talent, no literary insight, involved in manipulating the reader's emotions toward something they absolutely don't want in real life?

Why is titillation about rape a bad thing, but (random example) imagining living in the middle ages--with disease, rotten food, and an infant mortality rate of 30%--is considered a perfectly reasonable topic for literature? What makes it reasonable to daydream about living in a time & place that would in actuality make the daydreamer miserable, but it's not okay to daydream about sexual acts that the daydreamer doesn't actually want to happen?

PayPal--and many of their supporters--seem to be incapable of distinguishing between fiction and reality; it's like they believe that what people want to read about & imagine is what they want to happen in their lives.

I've enjoyed working at Renaissance Fairs, and pretending to be a 16th-century merchant's wife; I have no interest in living in a place and time with no antibiotics, no effective birth control, and no germ theory. Likewise, I've enjoyed reading & thinking about a world where business meetings all end in drugged orgies--but that doesn't mean I want my job to install beds in the conference rooms.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

PayPal--and many of their supporters--seem to be incapable of distinguishing between fiction and reality; it's like they believe that what people want to read about & imagine is what they want to happen in their lives.

I've enjoyed working at Renaissance Fairs, and pretending to be a 16th-century merchant's wife; I have no interest in living in a place and time with no antibiotics, no effective birth control, and no germ theory. Likewise, I've enjoyed reading & thinking about a world where business meetings all end in drugged orgies--but that doesn't mean I want my job to install beds in the conference rooms.

I love this whole comment so much, but this part especially.

[BillSmithBooks]

I think Smashwords did what they had to do.

Paypal has always had prohibitions against "pornographic"/erotic/sexual material in its TOS, dating back to at least 98 or 99 when I joined.

Both Smashwords and PayPal have the right to decide what sorts of content they will and will not carry and sell, just as I have the right to determine what sorts of political placards are allowed onto my front lawn and just as I exert some discretion as to what I say and when I say it. (Different social rules between the bar and hanging out with guys than at work.) This sort of discretion is everyone's right...and customers are allowed to react accordingly and raise a stink if they don't agree with those policies.

MANY companies tend to go with the path of least resistance. Rather than looking at the money they MIGHT make by carrying controversial material that appeals to a fairly narrow audience, they are terrified of the backlash and potential lost revenue from all of the publicity of carrying potentially controversial material.

Smashwords has taken the path of removing content PayPal has told them they must and I understand that decision...at this point, there really is no alternative for them. (Short of setting up their own payment processing system, which has all kinds of hassles and ultimately you are still dealing with the credit card vendors, who appear to be true instigators behind this because of the higher fees they charge for "questionable/high chargeback" materials.)

Somewhere when this brouhaha first broke out, somebody proposed a kind of "SmashwordsRedlight" as a separate storefront and entity, exclusively for erotica materials and using a different payment method. This idea has lots of merit IMO.

I still see this situation as an opportunity for erotica fans, authors and publishers to band together to serve their community. Set up a storefront, get involved with the community and become independent.

[BillSmithBooks]

Should have noted in prior post -- no, I'm not opposed to erotica in principle (although I personally have difficulty getting past the "squirm" factor of the specific content being removed). The stuff's not my cup of tea, but I think adults should be allowed to read what they want as long as no one's getting hurt. I give most people credit for being smart enough to distinguish that stories with shapeshifting people are most likely to be fictional.

I'm also bemusedly waiting for the Bible to be banned since parts of it also contain this kind of "objectionable" content...and also arguably at least partly fictional...stones, glass houses and all that. Once somebody opens up the can of worms, the whole subject of interpretation and obscenity is a slippery slope that serves few people well.

As someone who played lots of D&D in the days of the "D&D is a gateway to Satanism" hysteria, I strongly lean towards free speech.

At the same time, I understand companies using discretion to determine exactly what they will and won't sell.