What would you pay for a gadget made under better conditions?

[crashed]

The argument that most companies are making in stating that "well we outsource everything in order to make things cheaper for you to buy", is generally a bogus one. Most companies that can afford to outsource and to take all the risks that are involved in outsourcing - generally can easily afford to set their retail prices to anything they want really.

Sure making something in America would cost a bit more on average (esp. at the start of a production line), it would only take away the profit that they always want to keep high. And that's not to say that the production costs would get cheaper in time if goods were made locally and of better quality, its just at this point in time there is so little infrastructure made here in the states that many companies scoff at the larger sum of money it costs to start all that "work".

Its pretty much corporations being cheap, lazy, and more profitable. I should know, I work for a tech company who specializes in such practices unfortunately.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by crashed

The argument that most companies are making in stating that "well we outsource everything in order to make things cheaper for you to buy", is generally a bogus one. Most companies that can afford to outsource and to take all the risks that are involved in outsourcing - generally can easily afford to set their retail prices to anything they want really.

Uh. No.
A lot of companies exist solely to market outsourced products; they provide the specifications, the brand, distribution and marketing, and their ODM *partners* supply the products.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origina...n_manufacturer
No outsourcing, no company.
And if they can't sell the product at the outsourced price they can't exist either.

Vizio is the current poster child for a successful business built on this model.
So is Westinghouse Digital (no, they are in no way related to the Westinghouse that build nuclear reactors--that one is owned by Toshiba).
Note they have been making decent profits in a business where Sony is losing their shirt on (TVs) and even Samsung is struggling to make a profit.

This is not a black and white issue.
Modern manufacturing is a web of relationships, contracts, labor division, and wide-ranging supply chains. And every company's case is unique unto itself.
That is one reason why Apple found itself on the hot seat and felt compelled (and is able) to act; their relationship with Foxconn is decidely different than those of other Foxconn partners.

Pondering and debating is good but let's be careful not to over-generalize.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Uh. No.
A lot of companies exist solely to market outsourced products; they provide the specifications, the brand, distribution and marketing, and their ODM *partners* supply the products.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origina...n_manufacturer
No outsourcing, no company.
And if they can't sell the product at the outsourced price they can't exist either.

Vizio is the current poster child for a successful business built on this model.
So is Westinghouse Digital (no, they are in no way related to the Westinghouse that build nuclear reactors--that one is owned by Toshiba).
Note they have been making decent profits in a business where Sony is losing their shirt on (TVs) and even Samsung is struggling to make a profit.

This is not a black and white issue.
Modern manufacturing is a web of relationships, contracts, labor division, and wide-ranging supply chains. And every company's case is unique unto itself.
That is one reason why Apple found itself on the hot seat and felt compelled (and is able) to act; their relationship with Foxconn is decidely different than those of other Foxconn partners.

Pondering and debating is good but let's be careful not to over-generalize.

In the end suppliers like Foxconn and brandowners like Apple are in the same boat. Foxconn would go belly up if Apple pulled all its orders, but Apple couldn't find anyone able to replace Foxconn.

So they both must react in cases like this. As I have mentioned, while the workers' situation was quite bad 20 years ago, but it is very favorable these days. But they must do something to counter the (though mostly unfair) bad publicity.

Companies like Foxconn, of course, work on minimal margins. Apple tells them where to buy the components and production equipment and then calculates overhead and assembly costs. In the end Apple and others will leave Foxconn a profit margin of about 3-5% maximum. So any increase in wages, etc must come through higher prices from Apple.

[xg4bx]

the only reason i buy any of these things is because they're cheap. i simply don't care enough about tech to pay anything more than cheap, "entry level" prices.

[speakingtohe]

So they both must react in cases like this. As I have mentioned, while the workers' situation was quite bad 20 years ago, but it is very favorable these days. But they must do something to counter the (though mostly unfair) bad publicity.

I am curious about the workers cost of living and living conditions. I read a fair amount of Asian fiction. Inspector Chen Cao comes to mind.

I have read that the majority of people live in government assigned housing, up to 5 to a single room. This is whether they work or not. Some have running water, most have electricity, but cooking is done on coal or charcoal burning stoves that are stored on the landing as there is very little room.

Can an average family with two employed factory workers working 60 hours a week enjoy a comparable lifestyle to those in Western Nations. Or are the living conditions more comparable to people on low level social assistance, vermin infested rooming houses, loud noises from neighbours, communal bathrooms, or living in a cardboard box or under a tree.

I am not asking this to be argumentative, I am curious. I have several young Asian friends who tell me stories of trips back to mainland China. One in particular travels to China with her parents every second year. She loves to travel, but is always appalled by the lack of indoor plumbing, the inconvenience of travel within the country, the crowded living conditions and how hard the people have to work. She has lived in some pretty poor conditions in Canada but figures it is a million times better than China(her words)

Helen

[Andrew H.]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

Or are the living conditions more comparable to people on low level social assistance, vermin infested rooming houses, loud noises from neighbours, communal bathrooms, or living in a cardboard box or under a tree.

I think it's hard to make these comparisons because the US (and to a lesser extent in other western countries), living on low level social assistance is bad because there is so much crime associated with the life.

[speakingtohe]

I think it's hard to make these comparisons because the US (and to a lesser extent in other western countries), living on low level social assistance is bad because there is so much crime associated with the life.
__________________
Oceania: We H

I was making the comparison solely on living conditions that could be obtained with the hard earned compensation obtained. Many non-criminals are living on social assistance through happenstance who are as honest as most. They aren't all lazy dishonest ne'er do wells.

Helen

And well-to-do people both occidental and Asian people do commit the occasional crime.

[GA Russell]

Originally Posted by crashed

The argument that most companies are making in stating that "well we outsource everything in order to make things cheaper for you to buy", is generally a bogus one...

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Uh. No.
A lot of companies exist solely to market outsourced products; they provide the specifications, the brand, distribution and marketing, and their ODM *partners* supply the products.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origina...n_manufacturer
No outsourcing, no company.
And if they can't sell the product at the outsourced price they can't exist either.

Vizio is the current poster child for a successful business built on this model...

Wait a second, fjt! I believe you are misusing the term "outsourced".

I understand outsourcing to occur when a company stops doing something in the US, and has it done overseas instead.

If the company never did the action in the US, then that's not outsourcing. It sounds to me like Vizio is merely an importer of goods made to its specs. Those goods aren't outsourced; they're just imports.

That's not what crashed was talking about.

(My biggest pet peeve regarding outsourcing are the companies who laid off Americans at their call centers, and replaced them with Indians and Orientals whom I can't understand over the phone.)

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by speakingtohe

I am curious about the workers cost of living and living conditions. I read a fair amount of Asian fiction. Inspector Chen Cao comes to mind.

I have read that the majority of people live in government assigned housing, up to 5 to a single room. This is whether they work or not. Some have running water, most have electricity, but cooking is done on coal or charcoal burning stoves that are stored on the landing as there is very little room.

Can an average family with two employed factory workers working 60 hours a week enjoy a comparable lifestyle to those in Western Nations. Or are the living conditions more comparable to people on low level social assistance, vermin infested rooming houses, loud noises from neighbours, communal bathrooms, or living in a cardboard box or under a tree.

I am not asking this to be argumentative, I am curious. I have several young Asian friends who tell me stories of trips back to mainland China. One in particular travels to China with her parents every second year. She loves to travel, but is always appalled by the lack of indoor plumbing, the inconvenience of travel within the country, the crowded living conditions and how hard the people have to work. She has lived in some pretty poor conditions in Canada but figures it is a million times better than China(her words)

Helen

Regular working hours in at companies like Foxconn are 40 hours per week. Maximum is 60 hours, with overtime. Overtime pay doubles if they have to work Sundays. They work a lot longer at local Chinese companies that produce cheap products for the local market and/or export.

Yes, lots of places in rural China are extremely backward, and those are the places were tourists like to go. No tourist visits the industrial areas we are talking about here, there is nothing to see but factories for 100s of miles.

In the big cities living conditions are quite good, though definitely not yet on par with the west. But no communal bathrooms or vermin infested living quarters! Forgot what you have seen in Africa or the slums in South America. Though build quality of houses for the average Joe is quite low (as most Chinese things go in general), but acceptable. Something Westerners usually miss is the gigantic "black economy". There is a lot more money out there than just what people make through regular work.

In the factories living quarters are cramped, but staying there is part of the wages. Since most workers come from far away and don't plan to stay they prefer to live in factory housing rather than buy an apartment. (Housing prices also have gone through the roof during the last few years)

People in general are quite happy with the progress that has been made during the last 2 decades. I speak the local language and the general consensus these days is "it is better in China". This is especially noticeable when running into Chinese tourists abroad.

Anyway, China these days is a far cry from what you imagine it to be. You are describing the situation in China until the late 1980's.