A moral dilemma - Page 5

khalleron · 09-08-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

Agreed. Yeah, it totally sucks that the OP could possibly lose the books he paid for. But the providers of those books are not obligated to replace them, nor is the OP entitled to free replacements.

I have to disagree - if the theory is that you're sold, not a book, but a license, then the publisher IS obligated to provide free replacements. Or should be, anyway.

Whether you feel it's OK to get your replacements elsewhere if the publisher doesn't honor their agreement with you is between you and your conscience, as always.

Either way, it doesn't appear you'd be hurting anyone.

But yeah, back up, back up, back up. Not because you're wrong, but because corporations can't be trusted.

As to library books - is there really a need to OWN a book you can get from the library? If you can check it out and read it whenever you want, I'm not sure I see the need to strip it and keep it, except for psychological reasons.

But again, it won't hurt anyone if you do.

gweeks · 09-08-2011, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalleron

As to library books - is there really a need to OWN a book you can get from the library? If you can check it out and read it whenever you want, I'm not sure I see the need to strip it and keep it, except for psychological reasons.

One word. deaccession It happens for paper, and it looks like it might happen for Kansas ebooks as well.

Greg Weeks

HarryT · 09-08-2011, 02:56 PM

I see no dilemma here at all. Making backups is your responsibility, and nobody else's. You screwed up - that's tough, but it's nobody's fault but your own. No, your screwup doesn't give you the "right" to illegally obtain copies of the books again.

stonetools · 09-08-2011, 03:08 PM

This doesn't seem to come under the category of moral dilemma. Rather, it comes under the category "S$%^ happens. "
Its interesting how things change for people when we start talking about things digital. If the OP had lost his pbooks in a fire, my guess is that he wouldn't even bother asking if he should just borrow physical books from the library and scan them. Everyone would just know that's not kosher.
A quick look at the Fictionwise sie indicate that they do not now provide for the backup or archiving of any books that you buy. ( I might also add that they also bar you from copying any books you buy , but , hey, whatever). They didn't promise that you will be able to re-download any ebook that you have lost. (Maybe that's why they can afford to give away all those coupons). FW is therefore not under obligation to help you (though it would be nice if they did).

As to the library, they are an innocent bystander in this. I'd leave them out of any solution you have planned. If anything goes wrong ( and Murphy's Law is always on overdrive in situations like this) you don't want to f**k things up for the library or its other patrons.
It seems to me that if you have insurance, (and you should have that anyway), then this is time to use it. That would be the perfectly legal and ethical way to resolve the situation. My $0.02.

HarryT · 09-08-2011, 03:11 PM

Your household insurance should certainly cover this. You've lost valuable property as the result of an accident; that's precisely what insurance is there for.

tompe · 09-08-2011, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Your household insurance should certainly cover this. You've lost valuable property as the result of an accident; that's precisely what insurance is there for.

I think not taking backup would fall under being to careless so the insurance probably would not cover it.

kennyc · 09-08-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I think not taking backup would fall under being to careless so the insurance probably would not cover it.

I'd agree. If my hard-drive on my computer crashes my homeowners insurance ain't gonna do squat and even if the computer is under warranty they will replace the hard drive, but the terms of warrant specifically exclude any data issues.

HarryT · 09-08-2011, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tompe

I think not taking backup would fall under being to careless so the insurance probably would not cover it.

I'm not so sure. If you're careless enough to leave a cigarette smouldering in a chair and your house burns down, your insurance will probably pay. Nearly all "accidents" are somebody's fault. Few insurance policies limit payouts to "blame free" accidents.

ucfgrad93 · 09-08-2011, 03:35 PM

Two issues with trying to claim it on insurance. First, it might not meet the deductible. Second, it may cause his rates to go up.

kennyc · 09-08-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

Two issues with trying to claim it on insurance. First, it might not meet the deductible. Second, it may cause his rates to go up.

Yep, that's what they are counting on!

ProfCrash · 09-08-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Part of why I don't like walled gardens, they can still fail, and if you rely on them you're at a loss. Most ebook stores allow subsequent downloads, so many do not backup because they trust they do not need to. Here Fictionwise had an issue with a publisher, and now no one can redownload books from that publisher. If you lived out side of the garden, you'd have not expected to rely on others as much, and most likely had backups.

Agreed. Which is why all of my books are saved and will be backed up this weekend.

monkeygirl351 · 09-08-2011, 04:42 PM

At Carpetmojo, I PMed you with my procedure of backing up my books. I hope it helps. Since I described the DRM removal I believe it would be against forum rules so I didn't want to get in trouble.
Again I believe that this is a hard lesson learned by the OP, but I also believe that he should be able to retrieve these books as he has already paid for them. If Fictionwise and the other sites he got the books from were still around, he would have downloaded them for free after the crash anyways. It isn't his fault that the companies are no longer providing the service they originally intended. I know that a ton of people that have kindles, nooks ect probably don't back up their books relying on the fact that Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo ect are always going to be there to provide downloads in case something should happen. Well things can change and companies change. Barnes and Noble could go down like Borders, Amazon could suddenly stop supporting the kindle, or even more realistically, certain publishers could suddenly pull their books from Amazon for whatever reason. Since Amazon wouldn't have the rights to distribute said books, people who bought them would be out of luck.Not saying that this is going to happen but it could. Now all the people that haven't backed up their purchases could be out potentially thousands of dollars and be in the same position as the OP. Now no homeowners insurance is going to cover this, so unless you backed up, you are either going to have to respend the thousands to get your purchases back, or get the books from elsewhere. I know that I am not made of money so I would do the latter, I also bet that alot of others would do the same if stuck in the same position. I guess it really is a morality or judgement call.
I guess in the end the lesson learned is to BACKUP anything you deem of value. Don't rely on the companies to do it for you. Anyone who relies on the cloud storage of companies like Band N, Amazon, and Kobo are waiting for a disaster to happen.

stonetools · 09-08-2011, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

Two issues with trying to claim it on insurance. First, it might not meet the deductible. Second, it may cause his rates to go up.

That's covered by "life ain't always fair." Again, if he had lost his physical books in a fire, nobody would be saying , " Well, you just need to buy a good scanner and get a library card." You have an accident, you have to eat your loss somehow.

ucfgrad93 · 09-08-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonetools

That's covered by "life ain't always fair." Again, if he had lost his physical books in a fire, nobody would be saying , " Well, you just need to buy a good scanner and get a library card." You have an accident, you have to eat your loss somehow.

Agreed.

anamardoll · 09-08-2011, 06:24 PM

Physical books are not the same as digital books.

A corporation cannot replace physical books for free because it will cost them money to print the books, bind them, and mail them to his house. A corporation can replace digital data for free because the data already exists and the delivery infrastructure is in place. If they will not honor his Fictionwise purchases, then they are defrauding him, not the other way around.

I would like to call Analogy Police on this whole thread. Digital books are NOT physical books and all analogies that hinge on physical books are therefore not applicable. IMHO.

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09-08-2011, 02:56 PM	#63
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,545 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I see no dilemma here at all. Making backups is your responsibility, and nobody else's. You screwed up - that's tough, but it's nobody's fault but your own. No, your screwup doesn't give you the "right" to illegally obtain copies of the books again.

09-08-2011, 03:08 PM	#64
stonetools Wizard Posts: 2,016 Karma: 2838487 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Washington, DC Device: Ipad, IPhone	This doesn't seem to come under the category of moral dilemma. Rather, it comes under the category "S$%^ happens. " Its interesting how things change for people when we start talking about things digital. If the OP had lost his pbooks in a fire, my guess is that he wouldn't even bother asking if he should just borrow physical books from the library and scan them. Everyone would just know that's not kosher. A quick look at the Fictionwise sie indicate that they do not now provide for the backup or archiving of any books that you buy. ( I might also add that they also bar you from copying any books you buy , but , hey, whatever). They didn't promise that you will be able to re-download any ebook that you have lost. (Maybe that's why they can afford to give away all those coupons). FW is therefore not under obligation to help you (though it would be nice if they did). As to the library, they are an innocent bystander in this. I'd leave them out of any solution you have planned. If anything goes wrong ( and Murphy's Law is always on overdrive in situations like this) you don't want to f**k things up for the library or its other patrons. It seems to me that if you have insurance, (and you should have that anyway), then this is time to use it. That would be the perfectly legal and ethical way to resolve the situation. My $0.02.

09-08-2011, 03:11 PM	#65
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,545 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Your household insurance should certainly cover this. You've lost valuable property as the result of an accident; that's precisely what insurance is there for.

09-08-2011, 03:35 PM	#69
ucfgrad93 Wizard Posts: 2,370 Karma: 9026681 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Colorado Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2nd Gen	Two issues with trying to claim it on insurance. First, it might not meet the deductible. Second, it may cause his rates to go up.

09-08-2011, 04:42 PM	#72
monkeygirl351 Connoisseur Posts: 59 Karma: 496762 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: ipod touch, ipad, and kindle 3	At Carpetmojo, I PMed you with my procedure of backing up my books. I hope it helps. Since I described the DRM removal I believe it would be against forum rules so I didn't want to get in trouble. Again I believe that this is a hard lesson learned by the OP, but I also believe that he should be able to retrieve these books as he has already paid for them. If Fictionwise and the other sites he got the books from were still around, he would have downloaded them for free after the crash anyways. It isn't his fault that the companies are no longer providing the service they originally intended. I know that a ton of people that have kindles, nooks ect probably don't back up their books relying on the fact that Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Kobo ect are always going to be there to provide downloads in case something should happen. Well things can change and companies change. Barnes and Noble could go down like Borders, Amazon could suddenly stop supporting the kindle, or even more realistically, certain publishers could suddenly pull their books from Amazon for whatever reason. Since Amazon wouldn't have the rights to distribute said books, people who bought them would be out of luck.Not saying that this is going to happen but it could. Now all the people that haven't backed up their purchases could be out potentially thousands of dollars and be in the same position as the OP. Now no homeowners insurance is going to cover this, so unless you backed up, you are either going to have to respend the thousands to get your purchases back, or get the books from elsewhere. I know that I am not made of money so I would do the latter, I also bet that alot of others would do the same if stuck in the same position. I guess it really is a morality or judgement call. I guess in the end the lesson learned is to BACKUP anything you deem of value. Don't rely on the companies to do it for you. Anyone who relies on the cloud storage of companies like Band N, Amazon, and Kobo are waiting for a disaster to happen.

09-08-2011, 06:24 PM	#75
anamardoll Chasing Butterflies Posts: 3,132 Karma: 5074169 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: American Southwest Device: Uses batteries.	Physical books are not the same as digital books. A corporation cannot replace physical books for free because it will cost them money to print the books, bind them, and mail them to his house. A corporation can replace digital data for free because the data already exists and the delivery infrastructure is in place. If they will not honor his Fictionwise purchases, then they are defrauding him, not the other way around. I would like to call Analogy Police on this whole thread. Digital books are NOT physical books and all analogies that hinge on physical books are therefore not applicable. IMHO.

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