Under new Overdrive model users will no longer choose a file format, just 'ebook'

[Lemurion]

I really like the idea, the libraries should be able to just get books and not worry about file formats - let OD handle that stuff.

As for PDFs, despite some members' love for them, the simple truth is that they don't work for the majority of people using dedicated devices. Apologists can talk about their perfect formatting all they want - but if I can't read it, I don't want it.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

As for PDFs, despite some members' love for them, the simple truth is that they don't work for the majority of people using dedicated devices. Apologists can talk about their perfect formatting all they want - but if I can't read it, I don't want it.

I agree with this: if you can't read it on your device, you don't want the format. That's the main reason I don't buy books in, say, mobi -- I don't use the mobi format, and I can't be arsed to convert.

I think the PDF boil in the thread is coming from a few... let us say "hard-liners" who insist that the PDF format is "not a book format". And certain people -- myself included -- disagree with that assessment.

PDF is only not a book format if perfect text reflow is a prerequisite of book formats, and I think it is not. You cannot, after all, reflow a physical book, but that doesn't make it less of a book.

I like text reflow in novels where it is appropriate. I like having as much control over my reading as I can -- including margins, font, font size, and so forth. And I think that's the ideal that publishers should aim for.

However, the current options out there are still not perfect for the reflow and resizing of images, graphs, math formulas, and the like. There are other formats and other ways to tweak and get around these issues, but (A) not every reader supports THOSE formats either, and (B) these issues are not going away any time soon.

PDF does serve to provide an imperfect solution to those problems. For people who have a lot of PDF books, like myself, there are PDF readers like the Sony 950 that work beautifully. I couldn't be happier with mine.

To just baldly say "PDF != eBook" is silly and fanatical. To say "I don't like PDFs and won't use them and don't want them foisted on me via Overdrive shenanigans" is perfectly reasonable, imho.

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I agree with this: if you can't read it on your device, you don't want the format. That's the main reason I don't buy books in, say, mobi -- I don't use the mobi format, and I can't be arsed to convert.

I think the PDF boil in the thread is coming from a few... let us say "hard-liners" who insist that the PDF format is "not a book format". And certain people -- myself included -- disagree with that assessment.

PDF is only not a book format if perfect text reflow is a prerequisite of book formats, and I think it is not. You cannot, after all, reflow a physical book, but that doesn't make it less of a book.

I like text reflow in novels where it is appropriate. I like having as much control over my reading as I can -- including margins, font, font size, and so forth. And I think that's the ideal that publishers should aim for.

However, the current options out there are still not perfect for the reflow and resizing of images, graphs, math formulas, and the like. There are other formats and other ways to tweak and get around these issues, but (A) not every reader supports THOSE formats either, and (B) these issues are not going away any time soon.

PDF does serve to provide an imperfect solution to those problems. For people who have a lot of PDF books, like myself, there are PDF readers like the Sony 950 that work beautifully. I couldn't be happier with mine.

To just baldly say "PDF != eBook" is silly and fanatical. To say "I don't like PDFs and won't use them and don't want them foisted on me via Overdrive shenanigans" is perfectly reasonable, imho.

On the gripping hand, many PDF supporters have repeatedly made the claim that it is the "best" ebook format - and I see that as being just as much a mark of fanaticism as saying it's a useless one. It's only PDFs where I see the complaints that books aren't readable on a majority of devices that support the format.

It has its uses - but the majority of currently available PDFs are decidedly suboptimal when considered as ebooks.

It's great for displaying the printed page - and as a source document for printing - it's less than great for reading on a screen unless its been specifically tailored for that screen.

[toddos]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

PDF is only not a book format if perfect text reflow is a prerequisite of book formats, and I think it is not. You cannot, after all, reflow a physical book, but that doesn't make it less of a book.

Nice strawman you've got there. Mind if I knock it down?

Of course you can't reflow paper books. They're paper. Duh. But books in digital formats are supposed to go beyond what paper can provide, including the ability to resize fonts and reflow text. Otherwise, what's the point? Just keep buying paper books.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Lemurion

On the gripping hand, many PDF supporters have repeatedly made the claim that it is the "best" ebook format - and I see that as being just as much a mark of fanaticism as saying it's a useless one. It's only PDFs where I see the complaints that books aren't readable on a majority of devices that support the format.

I don't disagree with what you're saying. I would disagree with someone saying that PDF is THE BEST EBOOK FORMAT EVAH (as you say, that would be fanaticism, and the only reason I haven't called it out is because I haven't seen anyone say this yet, but I may have missed something), but I do believe that it's the best format (that I've used, anyway) for certain types of books.

(This belief is also, I acknowledge, subjective and not some universal truth. )

In my opinion, there is not yet one perfect ebook format that can handle everything needed in ever book ever.

Originally Posted by toddos

Of course you can't reflow paper books. They're paper. Duh. But books in digital formats are supposed to go beyond what paper can provide, including the ability to resize fonts and reflow text. Otherwise, what's the point? Just keep buying paper books.

There are many differences between a PDF file and a paper book. There are some similarities between a PDF file and a paper book. A PDF file is an ebook format that accomplishes some things well, other things poorly, and yet some other things not at all.

[Sil_liS]

Oh, it is good to see that the Highlander series left us with the great concept of "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE", but I don't actually believe that one book format can satisfy everybody's needs. And I've said this before: the best thing to do is to have devices that can read more formats.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

Oh, it is good to see that the Highlander series left us with the great concept of "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE", but I don't actually believe that one book format can satisfy everybody's needs. And I've said this before: the best thing to do is to have devices that can read more formats.

Haha, that was awesome.

May I nominate Sil_liS to win the thread?

[EowynCarter]

You cannot, after all, reflow a physical book, but that doesn't make it less of a book.

There is a major difference with pbook, the page physical size is known...

[Lemurion]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

You cannot, after all, reflow a physical book, but that doesn't make it less of a book.

If you don't mind, I'd like to address this one specific point because it is often brought up in defense of PDFs. It's true, but it's also irrelevant because not all books use the same size pages. When a book is laid out, the content determines the page size.

Something that needs lots of charts, tables, and illustrations like a textbook or RPG rulebook is printed on larger pages. Something like a novel, which doesn't need complex formatting is printed in multiple sizes, first in hardcover, then in paperback - and it's typeset differently for each size.

The issue with ereaders is that the screen size is fixed, so everything has to fit into the same display area. That fixed area for all books makes a huge difference. No one's trying to fit a massive RPG rulebook into a mass market paperback.

It's this fundamental difference that makes any reference to paper books not reflowing moot. They don't reflow because the content has already been fitted to the page.

[anamardoll]

My only point with regards to page reflow was that I had seen (or thought I'd seen) someone claim that "page reflow" was mandatory for a format to be an eBook format.

I find this as arbitrary as the folks who say that LCD devices are "not eReaders".

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

My only point with regards to page reflow was that I had seen (or thought I'd seen) someone claim that "page reflow" was mandatory for a format to be an eBook format.

I find this as arbitrary as the folks who say that LCD devices are "not eReaders".

People read at different font sizes, on different sized screens - reflow *is* necessary for an ebook to be readable across users and devices.

The only time this is not necessary is if you're formatting your own books for your own use.

Which is such a small qualifier as to to be negligible.

It's not 'arbitrary' at all.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by khalleron

People read at different font sizes, on different sized screens - reflow *is* necessary for an ebook to be readable across users and devices.

The only time this is not necessary is if you're formatting your own books for your own use.

Which is such a small qualifier as to to be negligible.

It's not 'arbitrary' at all.

I didn't say that "reflow was arbitrary". I said that "reflow as a pass/fail condition for something being eligible to be called an 'eBook format' was arbitrary". Or at least, that's what I was trying to convey.

I have PDF books that don't have words. Does the fact that they don't have words to reflow make THEM not an eBook at all? Of course not. It's an unusual eBook, but it IS an eBook. It's a book in electronic form. That's all it needs to be to be an eBook.

Please understand that I'm not arguing that PDF is some kind of nirvana format. I AM arguing that it is a valid eBook format for some books in some cases for some people. That. Is. All.

---

Furthermore, we do not use "readable across users and devices" as a rubric for "is it an eBook format". If we did, then there would be NO eBook formats, because I can't think of a single format that is readable by all users across all devices.

[ATimson]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Furthermore, we do not use "readable across users and devices" as a rubric for "is it an eBook format". If we did, then there would be NO eBook formats, because I can't think of a single format that is readable by all users across all devices.

Perhaps "readable across users and devices implementing the format according to the specification", then?

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by ATimson

Perhaps "readable across users and devices implementing the format according to the specification", then?

Depends. Is LIT still an eBook format even though it's been (AFAIK) utterly orphaned?

IF A FORMAT EXISTS ONLY AS A CALIBRE CONVERSION OPTION, DOES ANYONE HEAR IT FALL IN THE FOREST?

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I have PDF books that don't have words. Does the fact that they don't have words to reflow make THEM not an eBook at all? Of course not. It's an unusual eBook, but it IS an eBook. It's a book in electronic form. That's all it needs to be to be an eBook.

That's a qualifier that's even more negligible than the other one.

I think the argument centers around the question 'what is a usable ebook format?' rather than 'what is an ebook format?' - because the answer to the second one, as you are arguing, is pretty d**n much anything digital that has something you can look at or listen to.

There's a difference between something that *can't* reflow and something that doesn't need to.