WTF do publishers think they're doing ?

[tubemonkey]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

If someone lives in Australia, and somehow heard of a book that no Australian publisher has picked up yet, not allowing them to buy the book from an American vendor is quite likely to cause frustration and ill-will.

Or something else.

Spoiler:

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

People who spend a lot of their time in international communities on the internet shouldn't forget that there still are a lot of people who don't. (I know I sometimes have to remind myself that a lot of readers in Germany are not comfortable enough with English to read untranslated novels for fun...)

That's their problem, though, and really, they are going to wait for the German language version anyway. They won't complain that the new novel by Author X is not available in Germany due to geo restrictions.

If someone lives in Australia, and somehow heard of a book that no Australian publisher has picked up yet, not allowing them to buy the book from an American vendor is quite likely to cause frustration and ill-will.

You don't have to live in Australia to experience that frustration. Anywhere outside of the US will suffice, regardless of which language you speak.

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

That's their problem, though, and really, they are going to wait for the German language version anyway. They won't complain that the new novel by Author X is not available in Germany due to geo restrictions.

And what are you trying to get at with that argument?

What I was trying to get at is that just because we find books to read online, without regard where the book was published, we shouldn't forget in this discussion that a lot of other people find books to read in magazines, newspapers, TV, brick&mortar bookstores, libraries... "local" channels.

Ignoring that entirely is unfair to both the publishers who have to deal with it, and those "non-international" readers who also pay for books to keep authors and publishers in business.

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

You don't have to live in Australia to experience that frustration. Anywhere outside of the US will suffice, regardless of which language you speak.

I know that, I was just using Australia as one example.

[fjtorres]

The job of a publisher is supposed to be bringing readers and authors together.

When you get down to basics only those two are absolutely essential to the reading experience: authors to create, readers to consume.

Everybody else in the chain (agents, publishers, distributors, and retailers) have to justify their existence by facilitating that connection. To the extent that they impede it they are failing to justify their cut of the pie and are fair game for cutting out. And they *are* being cut out, by agents and authors and retailers-turned publishers. There is no law of nature that guarantees anybody an eternal piece of the pie. Everybody has to sing for their supper and sing well enough to stay in the game.

We are in a transition era today: the old model of doing business is failing and everybody is unhappy, apprehensive, and defensive. New models and approaches are being tried, usually by looking at new ways to divide the pie instead of ways to grow it by leveraging the opportunities offered by globalization and the internet.

Just this week, Amazon UK announced free pbook shipping to Australia, New Zealand, India and South Africa.
http://www.the-digital-reader.com/20...ks/#more-16528

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/cust...aycom-21#first

This comes just as the Australian Borders goes into receivership. Not much else need be said; the old way of selling no longer works.
Pretending the problem isn't real, that it isn't getting worse by the day, is just irrational.
Change is coming whether you like it or not.

ebooks offer alternative ways to operate, ways to supplement the failing model in the short term and likely replacements in the longer term. Smart publishers have been looking at this for over a decade. Smart publishers have been quietly negotiating world language rights for ebooks and delivering satisfactory results to writers who are not finding their throats bleeding.

In these times of change those that adapt will prosper.
Those that don't will go.
It's their choice, not ours.

All we can do is watch what is going on around us.
And what is going on is that there is but one planet out there and one market per language. One for chinese and one for english. One for spanish. One for German. It is all global, in the end.

And in that one global market, Amazon UK can *profitably* ship print books to Australia, eat the shipping cost, and still undercut the local retailer.

That is not an opinion, that is a fact, people.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

And what are you trying to get at with that argument?

It's just a statement, you know, that thing they do in discussions?

we shouldn't forget in this discussion that a lot of other people find books to read in magazines, newspapers, TV, brick&mortar bookstores, libraries... "local" channels.

True enough, but again, these people couldn't care less about the electronic availability of media in a language foreign to them. This issue doesn't affect them, at all, so I think drawing them into this discussion makes little sense. We aren't talking about physical books, as it were, for which the "old rules" still largely apply.

... is unfair to ... those "non-international" readers who also pay for books to keep authors and publishers in business.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here. I don't exactly see how me wanting (paid-for) access to foreign media can be considered "unfair" towards my fellow countrymen who have no such desire.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by dncharles

These day there is only one market for everything- this planet: true for music, soon-to-be true for film (thanks Ted Hope and others) and would be true for books were Amazon not as greedy as it is (more greedy than authors, Harry T!).

Are you blaming Amazon for not being able to sell books in certain geographies? And you think this is because Amazon is "greedy"? Methinks you forget that Amazon is NOT a publisher and is not all-powerful.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The job of a publisher is supposed to be bringing readers and authors together.

When you get down to basics only those two are absolutely essential to the reading experience: authors to create, readers to consume.

As a reader, I really prefer an editor to get hold of the work before I read it. Have you tried to stumble through some of the dreck on Smashwords? I would argue that a publisher provides very valuable services.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

And in that one global market, Amazon UK can *profitably* ship print books to Australia, eat the shipping cost, and still undercut the local retailer.

That is not an opinion, that is a fact, people.

People would like a citation for this. There are tax issues and customs forms... you've obviously never shipped internationally if you think it's that cheap and easy.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by queentess

Are you blaming Amazon for not being able to sell books in certain geographies?

Funnily enough as a consumer I'm really not interested in the reciprocal blame game between authors, translators, editors, agents, publishers, book-sellers and other concerned parties: I want it, I can't get it (easily & legally), of course I am going to complain (loudly) to the last link in the chain, i.e. the book-seller. Who, after all, is the one not selling it to me.

After that, being the law-abiding citizen that I am, I'll take my disposable income elsewhere. I know plenty of people who don't take the high road, but I'm not really sure I can blame them.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by queentess

People would like a citation for this. There are tax issues and customs forms... you've obviously never shipped internationally if you think it's that cheap and easy.

What form of citation? The link isn't enough?
They are doing it right now.
They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't see some kind of payoff.
(That is the well-established Amazon M.O.; find under-served markets and make money pennies at a time. Online book sales, walled-garden ebook readers, diapers... )

And yes, I have both bought and shipped content internationally; my BeBook came from the Netherlands, and I've ordered gaming and reader accessories straight from Hong Kong via ebay. Might not be as fast as driving to Best Buy or Gamestop but it gets there.

Over in the Pocketbook forums folks routinely get their PB readers from the US to Australia or Singapore with minimal drama.

The news of Amazon UK selling to the big commonwealth countries is news solely because of the experiment of *free shipping*. As when they introduced free shipping in the US (which stuck) the key is whether the increased volume makes up for the reduced margins.

Oh, and I agree that good editing is *required* somewhere along the way between author and reader. But not all traditional publishers do it well or (judging by some pbooks I've seen, at all) and its gotten to where some authors or agents are paying independent editors on their end of the deal.

My point remains: just because something's been done for centuries is no guarantee it will be done forever. The future is not the past with a new calendar and the times are indisputably changing. Some embrace change, others fight it, but it's still coming.
Only question is how fast and how painful the changes will be.

When you get down to it, these aren't things that anybody is planning and purposefully causing; it's more of an emergent effect of the changing system of world commerce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
Nobody is in control of the wave of change; there are no goodguys or bad guys, just surfers and wipeouts.
(To try a different metaphor.)

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Anke Wehner

What I was trying to get at is that just because we find books to read online, without regard where the book was published, we shouldn't forget in this discussion that a lot of other people find books to read in magazines, newspapers, TV, brick&mortar bookstores, libraries... "local" channels.

I'm in the U.S. yet you are describing me. I usually find the next book(s) I want based on reviews in the print magazines and newspapers I subscribe to like the Economist, the New York Review of Books, the Jewish Review of Books, The Atlantic, Smithsonian, The New York Times, American Heritage, my local newspaper, and browsing in my local brick-and-mortar bookstores (where I also buy pbook hardcover copies of books regularly). I rarely find books to read based on online reviews (with the exception of here at MR), and I'm in the demographic that authors and publishers want because I buy on average 7-10 books a month, and quite often more. In addition, I am now often buying both the pbook and ebook versions of books -- the pbook to keep in my library, the ebook to read.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The job of a publisher is supposed to be bringing readers and authors together.

With this I agree.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

When you get down to basics only those two are absolutely essential to the reading experience: authors to create, readers to consume.

This is true only so far as it goes. That middle level of making the connection between the author and consumer is absolutely essential as well. What "entity" form it takes may be up for grabs, but its role cannot be so lightly dismissed. Consumers can only buy what they find; authors can only sell what consumers can find.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

And in that one global market, Amazon UK can *profitably* ship print books to Australia, eat the shipping cost, and still undercut the local retailer.

That is not an opinion, that is a fact, people.

Sorry, but that is opinion. No facts have been presented that show that Amazon UK

1. profitably sells pbooks
2. or that the profit margin is such that it will still make a profit after shipping to New Zealand

Amazon is well known to be willing to take deep losses to gain market share. The question that no one knowledgeably addresses is this: Once the only bookseller left standing in a market is Amazon, what will happen to book prices?

The normal expectation is that they will rise. The standard response is that someone else will come in and undercut them. The first, I think, is true and likely to happen. The second is not necessarily true and unlikely to happen. If Amazon raised its prices across the board 10%, that margin would a significant increase in Amazon profitability but unlikely to be enough to enable a competitor to rise.

And don't forget that what rises can also fall. That is, Amazon could sit back months or years collecting the higher price/margin and fattening profits and then when it looks like a serious competitor is on the rise, simply revert to its former methods.

Once entrenched, it is very difficult to unseat a monopolist.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

What form of citation? The link isn't enough?
They are doing it right now.
They wouldn't be doing it if they didn't see some kind of payoff.
(That is the well-established Amazon M.O.; find under-served markets and make money pennies at a time. Online book sales, walled-garden ebook readers, diapers... )

1. Kindle isn't a walled-garden
2. No, a link showing that Amazon does something does not prove it's profitable. It may indeed have "some kind of payoff" (logically, this would have to be true, or Amazon should not be doing it), but that does not prove profitability. Amazon was renowned for having (pre-Agency pricing) $9.99 best seller ebooks as loss leaders.

[Kali Yuga]

FJTorres, I hate to sound like I'm picking on you, but....

We simply don't have a single unified culture based on shared languages. You could ship Vegemite for free to the US and you'd be lucky to sell more than a handful of crates.

Local expertise is sill required, and in many (but not all) cases the best current compensation system involves working with local retailers and local publishers.

As to the Amazon UK/Australia connection: I don't know the full deal, but my guess is Amazon is leveraging their business in the Commonwealth to reduce their tax liabilities and operating costs. The "free shipping" is a promo deal that expires on May 15th. It's almost certainly a loss leader; they take a short-term loss on the orders to build customer loyalty and thus gain future sales. It's a common retailer tactic.

I'm fairly confident this is not an example of the kind of "Flat Earth" e-commerce you're looking for.

[Quexos]

They want to screw us because they defend their interest not ours.
Be smart, Torrent ...

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

I can understand charging more for ebooks in countries outside the US. It costs a lot of money to send electrons over such great distances.

I really feel for you guys.

[cfrizz]

Originally Posted by rhadin

...Amazon is well known to be willing to take deep losses to gain market share. The question that no one knowledgeably addresses is this: Once the only bookseller left standing in a market is Amazon, what will happen to book prices?

I don't really see this happening. Do you really think that all of us who have epub & pdf ebooks are going to rebuy Amazon's versions? I don't think so.

If Amazon wants to be the only game in town, they will have to allow all other formats of ebooks to be bought, downloaded, sideloaded onto Kindles in their original formats.

Unless they are willing to do this, they will never be the only game in town.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by rogue_librarian

Funnily enough as a consumer I'm really not interested in the reciprocal blame game between authors, translators, editors, agents, publishers, book-sellers and other concerned parties: I want it, I can't get it (easily & legally), of course I am going to complain (loudly) to the last link in the chain, i.e. the book-seller. Who, after all, is the one not selling it to me.

After that, being the law-abiding citizen that I am, I'll take my disposable income elsewhere. I know plenty of people who don't take the high road, but I'm not really sure I can blame them.

...and that is precisely my belief as well.

If I see an ebook online that is not available in Australia due to geo restrictions then I will do my utmost to buy the book from wherever I can using what means necessary to purchase it.

There are far easier means available if I chose to go down that path but I do not, preferring to at least pay the author some royalties for his work.