ASUSteK's answer to the Foleo: the Eee PC, and it's $200!

[mogui]

Originally Posted by Azayzel

I'm using IE 7. It's happened to me quite a bit today, quite frustrating. I've posted a detailed explanation on what I think causes it in the migration thread.

Can you leave a post here? There is a feedback forum. Hopefully we can gather all the information in one place.

[mogui]

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

Sorry to hear you guys experience some problems. I am not sure if this problem is related to our latest forumsoftware. Could you start a new thread in the feedback forum and describe exactly what happened -- and perhaps others will also report similar issues. I am trying to solve anything that could be wrong

New thread started. See HERE.

[Nightwing]

Originally Posted by wallcraft

Something that has not been mentioned is that this does not look at all like a $200 device. See these photos. Note that these are of the 7" and the later 10" screen versions (the 10" looks even better). There also seem to be plenty of ports (multiple USB, VGA, RJ45, RJ11 and perhaps a SD card slot).

Will be interesting when its released...

The main expense item is not using windows...

[alex_d]

You seem to like using strong words, but that makes it hard for me to guess whether you are being serious here or not.

Yeah, you got me. That I do :-/

But still, I think OLPC is a very bad program. I think giving children computers is a good thing, but the OLPC people have tried hard to take away exactly what makes computers boosters to intelligence and bridgers of a divide in skills.

They thought, "oh, kids are stupid and macs are great so let's dumb it down as much as we can." The philosophy behind OLPC is to make an appliance. You press one button, you read a book. You press another button, you surf the web.

Figuring tools out makes people smarter. Figuring computers out makes people smarter. Figuring computers out also gives you skills that can fetch a good job and grow the economy. They've thrown all of that completely away. They've thrown money away. And the failure of this project will curtail other similar, but more effective initiatives.

So I'd have to say that on this point, my wording was not strong enough.


This ASUS book with Windows XP would make the perfect OLPC. In particular, having windows is very important. Windows is the only operating system that both has an easy learning curve and a lot of depth. It's like a ramp that lets you become more and more skilled without having to read manuals or try very hard. MacOS and Linux do only one or the other. Linux is especially bad because 99% of the support forums and other resources that one needs to learn to do ANYTHING non-trivial are in English.

[mogui]

Originally Posted by alex_d

This ASUS book with Windows XP would make the perfect OLPC. In particular, having windows is very important. Windows is the only operating system that both has an easy learning curve and a lot of depth. It's like a ramp that lets you become more and more skilled without having to read manuals or try very hard. MacOS and Linux do only one or the other. Linux is especially bad because 99% of the support forums and other resources that one needs to learn to do ANYTHING non-trivial are in English.

Yes, at that price, the Eee will draw a lot of applications -- like reading -- like schools in developing countries . . . But I do not consider that technology compelling people to operate in English is necessarily a bad thing. English is a syncretic language, and it is finding an evolutionary advantage, due to science and technology. Imagine doing all of this in Latin! The vocabulary of technology is an easier place to start than, say, literature.

For $200, with some swappable batteries, many of us will buy an Eee to use as a reader. Many others will happily hack the Linux on it. The Eee is an exciting development -- if they can really pull it off.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by alex_d

But still, I think OLPC is a very bad program. I think giving children computers is a good thing, but the OLPC people have tried hard to take away exactly what makes computers boosters to intelligence and bridgers of a divide in skills.

You are assuming that OLPC is about getting computers to kids. That's not the ultimate goal. It's getting information to kids.

PCs today are less learning tools in themselves and more of "internet terminals" - allowing people to access far more information than they ever had before.

Originally Posted by alex_d

This ASUS book with Windows XP would make the perfect OLPC.

The Windows XP license exceeds the cost of the hardware. So that would be a very poor choice for an OLPC OS.

The cheapest that I have seen Microsoft license Windows/Office for was $150. Which made the alternatives cost $500 for the Linux version and $650 for the Windows version of the PC. This was in Vietnam where $650 is a very large amount of money. Guess which version sold better?

Originally Posted by alex_d

Windows is the only operating system that both has an easy learning curve and a lot of depth.

That is a false statement.

I don't want to turn this discussion into a "Linux vs. Windows" debate. But I can tell you from experience that Linux is just as easy to learn (if not easier) and has far more depth than any Microsoft product.

Any OLPC system that uses Windows will be overpriced. And for any system that is effectively just an "internet terminal", it will make little difference which OS you use.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by mogui

For $200, with some swappable batteries, many of us will buy an Eee to use as a reader. Many others will happily hack the Linux on it. The Eee is an exciting development -- if they can really pull it off.

As an eBook reader the Eee will fail. Most people won't want to do battery management to read books.

Getting off on a tangent here...

IHMO, this whole OLPC, Eee, Foleo, etc. push is solving the wrong problem. The problem is not "building a full featured device that is small", but "building a system that will last at least 1 day without a recharge".

The problem is not which OS to use, which hardware to use, what features to incorporate. Those are the easy problems.

The problem is power - which is the hard problem. Our battery technology today is little different from the first chemical batteries. Yes, we have better chemicals, but they are still chemical and have all the limitations thereof - including short life.

What they should be focusing on is the power problem. Once they have a power source that can run for days, then features and such will make a difference.

What good is a device if the battery runs down when you need it? What good is a nicely portable device if you have to carry a life support system for it?

[alex_d]

I obviously meant that olpc should run donated windows. Microsoft would definately be up for it. In fact, my university has an agreement to sell windows to us for $6. Yeah $6, and we're not third-world elementary school kids. Microsoft was also significantly involved in OLPC talks, but I don't think they could find the right CPU and the OLPC people probably hate microsoft to begin with.

Regarding learning curve of Linux: I was not speaking precisely. I should have stated that in Linux it's very easy to do something basic like surf the web. Of course Linux also has tremendous depth. However, it's widely recognized that doing intermediate tasks is very difficult. Thus the learning curve is shallow at first but then gets very steep, very quickly. It is not a steady ramp like Windows.

Perhaps "getting information to kids" IS the goal of OLPC. However, I think this goal misses the point. Information can be gotten via books, and although google, wikipedia, and the internet are very helpful, they're not that big an advancement in themselves. The main benefit of computers is to directly boost intelligence as well as to acquire internationally sought-after skills. That is what would build economies.

[alex_d]

Mogui, I think the whole world should NOT start speaking English, and it saddens me that it is. If the whole world spoke English, the individual cultures would be destroyed.

You mention evolution. Evolution is fundamentally based on diversity, and diversity of cultures has been the driving force of the evolution of civilization. While Europeans were in the dark ages, Arabs were preserving mathematics. While the Arabs were turning despotic, France and America were build democracies. Etc, etc, etc. The loss of diversity would be tragic simply in terms of aesthetics, but it would also stop civilization cold.

The bible even has a story about how god very specifically did not want the world to all start speaking the same language and all say the same things.

[alex_d]

rlauzon, I believe the OLPC has a hand-crank (or a foot-crank, like an old sewing machine). I wish the Eee did too :-P.

[branko]

Originally Posted by alex_d

This ASUS book with Windows XP would make the perfect OLPC.

I do not necessarily agree or disagree, I lack the pedagogical knowledge to make a judgement. However, I did find your observation ironic because I strongly believe that without the OLPC project there would not have been an EEE. OLPC have implanted several memes into people's heads the world over, one of them being that an ultra-cheap sub-notebook is possible.

You are of course free to ignore the past and claim that at this point in time Asus' offering is better than OLPC's, but then you also ignore that Asus needed OLPC's invention as a reference point.

[branko]

WRT learning curves, Mac OS was once specifically designed around research into how kids who have never been exposed to computers learn to handle them. If this were 1990, Mac OS would be the clear winner here.

What usability research points out that currently, Windows has won the learning curve game for computer newbies?

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by alex_d

Regarding learning curve of Linux: I was not speaking precisely. I should have stated that in Linux it's very easy to do something basic like surf the web. Of course Linux also has tremendous depth. However, it's widely recognized that doing intermediate tasks is very difficult. Thus the learning curve is shallow at first but then gets very steep, very quickly. It is not a steady ramp like Windows.

I disagree that Windows offers a steady ramp of learning-- or if it does, that it is relevant. The vast majority of people I help to work with Windows (and I've been in tech support for the past 20 years) never move beyond the basics. A key advantage of Linux, on the other hand, is that the source of every program is open. For those who do decide to move beyond the basics, it is a much more accessable tool for learning about how computers work.

Originally Posted by alex_d

Perhaps "getting information to kids" IS the goal of OLPC. However, I think this goal misses the point. Information can be gotten via books, and although google, wikipedia, and the internet are very helpful, they're not that big an advancement in themselves. The main benefit of computers is to directly boost intelligence as well as to acquire internationally sought-after skills. That is what would build economies.

Have you been to these countries? They have no books, and repeated appeals over the years to correct this have not worked. That's part of the point. By providing a tool capable of accessing the internet, a huge quantity of books are also being provided. The OLPC program has also encouraged the development of a wide variety of learning games, which I believe are much more effective in boosting intelligence then simply handing someone a computer to figure out, regardless of which OS it is running (but perhaps I'm biased, as this is the area I'm doing my graduate work in).

I accept that you have strong opinions in this area, and you are certainly entitled to any opinions you choose to hold, and to state them as you please. But if you want to convince me, at least, to change my opinions, more precise references and details would help. As a professional in educational technology who has used and supported a wide variety of operating systems over the years (Mac OS, OSX, DOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris, VMS, TOPS-10, etc.), I don't find your statements about the learning advantages of Windows to be convincing.

[NatCh]

Originally Posted by alex_d

Yeah, you got me. That I do :-/

Nothing wrong with that, alex_d, it's just that it can be hard to make subtler meanings come through in the written word, where the reader doesn't have the tone or facial expression to get a better idea how something is meant.

Smilies help a lot, of course, but mostly it takes practice with carefully wording things so that the words say what you mean, even without the subtext.

[mogui]

Originally Posted by nekokami

As a professional in educational technology who has used and supported a wide variety of operating systems over the years (Mac OS, OSX, DOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris, VMS, TOPS-10, etc.), I don't find your statements about the learning advantages of Windows to be convincing.

Anything you would like to share about educational technology would be quite welcome. I remember the promises we were made thirty years ago about automating education. It seems this should be an open-source initiative, but it apparently isn't (to my limited knowledge). When I was in university, I did all my math and science courses as programmed instruction (on paper). I thought it was great! I could move at my own pace and learn it all quite thoroughly.

Talk about hi-jacking threads!