Sony Reader vs. iRex Iliad e-book reader

[CCDMan]

From a business point of view, I wouldn't want to artificially limit my market. If using an open standard instead of a proprietary one meets the needs of my customers

You must not be in business....
Linux meets the needs of 1.4 % of the customers and to serve those they either have to:

1)Write new conversion SW which may not be worth it for a lousy 1.4 % of the market. And indeed it probably is not even that since many Linux users
also have Windows machines.

or

2) Allow direct import of standard file formats. I agree that this would be nicer it but does take some added capability within the device, which will add to the device cost. They clearly decided that this was cheaper to do in SW. It will also be more versatile as new formats can be added much more easily.

The only reason that some companies pursue proprietary formats (like Sony and iTunes) is to lock their customers into their products.

Largely but not entirely true - if they were trying to lock customers in totally, they would not even offer conversion by SW. I agree that Sony has been pretty stupid along these lines in the past (witness beta and memory stick) - and it has cost them. Perhaps the fact that they have gone to SD on this device indicates that they have come to their senses to a degree. Time will tell. I should point out that insofar as the DRM part of the format, this may well be driven at least as much by their content providers. Unlike music and video, for books this is pretty much external to Sony.

From a consumer point of view, proprietary is bad and competition is good. Competition ensures that I will get the most for the least money.

Sure, what is good for stockholders is bad for consumers. This is often true and only sometimes avoidable. There is a delicate balance between making a device open (which sells more devices) and closed (which sells more content). Since most companies make far more from content, it is not suprising to see manufacturers go the way they have. Why do you think printers are so cheap? The money is in the ink. This is nothing new and is called capitalism. Not great until you consider the alternatives.

[doctorow]

How about releasing all the specs (which they are rumored to do for the BBeB format) and to make the available tools open-source? Sure enough the Linux community would write their own tools then.

[CCDMan]

How about releasing all the specs (which they are rumored to do for the BBeB format) and to make the available tools open-source?

Sounds good to me. I suspect even just the specs for the format would be enough. It will be interesting to see what happens once the device and content is available. I suspect there are gonna be some surprises, both good and bad.

From what I can see now, the Sony is the best option for my usage (recreational reading only). But this stuff has a way of not being what we expected, so I will reserve judgement until I see a few real world user reviews...

Take Care

[Laurens]

Open formats are more important than open-source, IMO.

[CommanderROR]

not really...open formats are cool, but open source gives all those programmers out there a chance to give us open format readers for the device, and they can
create new software whenever the formats change...and make it free as well.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the best programmers out there are freelance/hobby programmers...all those guys that install linux on strange devices like Windows PDAs, PSPs and smartphones...of course it's more or less a waste of time, but think about what those guys can do and could do to create useful software for all of us...^^

[Laurens]

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

not really...open formats are cool, but open source gives all those programmers out there a chance to give us open format readers for the device, and they can
create new software whenever the formats change...and make it free as well.

Not quite. Data represents actual work done by a user. Not being able to get to your data means that work is lost. Hence, more and more governments demand open formats.

An application (should the source not be available) can be recreated by any team of capable programmers, OTOH.

For example, it's far more important that HTML is an open standard than that Firefox is an open-source application.

[doctorow]

Nevertheless, it shouldn't "hurt" Sony to release their Windows converter as open source and to thus give other programmers an idea how to write converter tools for other platforms.

We've all heard the rumors that Sony is going to release the specs for BBeB. However, I won't believe it before I see the specs with my own eyes.

[Laurens]

Originally Posted by doctorow

Nevertheless, it shouldn't "hurt" Sony to release their Windows converter as open source and to thus give other programmers an idea how to write converter tools for other platforms.

Except if it gives insight into how their DRM works they shouldn't. I'm sure the publishers would not want that.

[doctorow]

Originally Posted by Laurens

Except if it gives insight into how their DRM works they shouldn't. I'm sure the publishers would not want that.

That depends. If implemented correctly, they shouldn't have anything to fear even if the converter tool is published as open source. It's like releasing your app's keyfile algorithm that is based on a known public-private-key algorithm such as Elgamal or RSA - as long as no one has access to the private key, the algorithm alone is useless for cracking the underlying code/data.

[Laurens]

Originally Posted by doctorow

That depends. If implemented correctly, they shouldn't have anything to fear even if the converter tool is published as open source. It's like releasing your app's keyfile algorithm that is based on a known public-private-key algorithm such as Elgamal or RSA - as long as no one has access to the private key, the algorithm alone is useless for cracking the underlying code/data.

Even so, the algorithm does give insight how the scheme works. A "revealing" bug in their software that leads to the format being cracked (the way DVD Jon managed to crack CSS because of a bug in a third-party video player) might make them liable for damages. The major stakeholders in their DRM are not Sony themselves, but the publishers.

[doctorow]

History has shown many times that there ain't no security through obscurity. If their DRM system has a bug, it'll be cracked, no matter whether it's open-source or not (in the latter case crackers will use tools such as IDA to reveal the underlying code). If Sony truly wants to convince us and their publisher partners that their system is fool-proof, they better make sure their system is bug-free and perhaps analyzed by some respected cryptologists.

[Laurens]

Originally Posted by doctorow

History has shown many times that there ain't no security through obscurity. If their DRM system has a bug, it'll be cracked, no matter whether it's open-source or not (in the latter case crackers will use tools such as IDA to reveal the underlying code). If Sony truly wants to convince us and their publisher partners that their system is fool-proof, they better make sure their system is bug-free and perhaps analyzed by some respected cryptologists.

Agreed. And I can safely predict their DRM will be cracked, just as most other protection schemes have been cracked in the past. I'm not talking about the technical aspect but about the potential liability due to unintentionally revealing too much about your DRM by opening the source.

As long as they open the BBeB spec, there will be some savvy coder who'll write a library for it. (In fact, there already are BBeB tools.) This is not rocket science. Besides, I can't imagine Sony embracing OSS all of a sudden.

[doctorow]

Originally Posted by Laurens

Besides, I can't imagine Sony embracing OSS all of a sudden.

That is probably true, they most certainly won't do it. Too bad. You're also right, it's perhaps easier for publishers to sue Sony for releasing buggy DRM code open-source than for crackers managing to circumvent their "invincible", obscure protection mechanisms.

[CommanderROR]

a bit OT, but still interesting:

has anyone ever seen what kind of "cover" the Iliad uses? I've only ever seen it open...I have no idea where the cover is attached, what it weighs, whether you can "fold it back" or have to take it off...I hope it works like hte Hanlins cover...that seems to be rather well done judging from the V8 videos.
A device with a touchscreen is always a bit of a problem...screen protectors are always important there in my opinion...and transporting it without "hardcover" would probably not be a good idea...

If I decide to get the Ilead I certainly hope brando will make screen-protectors for them...I simply love their "no-glue" solution and their simply excellent and tough foils.

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by CCDMan

You must not be in business....
Linux meets the needs of 1.4 % of the customers and to serve those they either have to:

1)Write new conversion SW which may not be worth it for a lousy 1.4 % of the market. And indeed it probably is not even that since many Linux users
also have Windows machines.

I don't have a Windows machine. Well, I take that back. I think I have an old machine in the closet that still has Windows on it - if it still fires up.

If they would have written the software in a cross-platform language - like Java - then they would be able to get 100% of the market instead of 80% (which is closer to the real Windows market).

Originally Posted by CCDMan

2) Allow direct import of standard file formats. I agree that this would be nicer it but does take some added capability within the device, which will add to the device cost. They clearly decided that this was cheaper to do in SW. It will also be more versatile as new formats can be added much more easily.

All they needed to do was choose a standard format. Making the device handle that format takes just as much resources as handling a proprietary one. No added cost.

Sure, what is good for stockholders is bad for consumers. This is often true and only sometimes avoidable.

Not usually. What's bad for the consumers doesn't get sold. Companies that make products that don't sell have mad stockholders.

[CommanderROR]

Just a suggestion:

Why not compile a list of Questions we all have about the new readers (Iliad, Sony and Hanlin V2) and them send them to the companies in the name of the Forum...

Maybe that is a good way to get answers from people like iRex? If they see there is interest from a larger audience they might be more willing to reply.

[Snappy!]

Originally Posted by doctorow

How about releasing all the specs (which they are rumored to do for the BBeB format) and to make the available tools open-source? Sure enough the Linux community would write their own tools then.

I agree with the open-source part. That will allow commercial and non-commercial parties to write their own tools. I write code myself, and a good part of them are freeware tools for windows, wince (HPC & pocketpc) and Palm.

I believe you didn't mean to refer only to linux communities so tot I should clarify that open-source can benefit not just linux community but also other coding communities.

[Snappy!]

Originally Posted by Laurens

Not quite. Data represents actual work done by a user. Not being able to get to your data means that work is lost. Hence, more and more governments demand open formats.

An application (should the source not be available) can be recreated by any team of capable programmers, OTOH.

For example, it's far more important that HTML is an open standard than that Firefox is an open-source application.

Good point there! Actually to write a new tool for a product like say Sony Reader or iRex iLiad, I just need the SDK to be released and I can write something to work with it. *IF* I want to modify the product itself, only then would I want the OS to be open-sourced.

[Alexander Turcic]

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

Just a suggestion:

Why not compile a list of Questions we all have about the new readers (Iliad, Sony and Hanlin V2) and them send them to the companies in the name of the Forum...

Maybe that is a good way to get answers from people like iRex? If they see there is interest from a larger audience they might be more willing to reply.

Good idea! Let me think about it today.

[TadW]

Originally Posted by CommanderROR

Maybe that is a good way to get answers from people like iRex? If they see there is interest from a larger audience they might be more willing to reply.

Nick just joined. This is a good place for asking questions to begin with.