Do some publishers have any idea?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

As a customer, you get to decide what business model suits your buying needs. The thing is, there is nothing moral involved. Publishers aren't evil because they want to charge more than a given book buyer wants to pay, and book buyers aren't cheapskates because they are only willing to pay a certain price for any book. It's a choice and like most choices it has certain ramifications. I would say that it is disingenuous to have a specific buying model and complain because it doesn't produce the books you want.

I agree with this, and btw I personally haven't complained about prices or evil publishers. Book prices are really pretty affordable, in my opinion. There are plenty of books under my personal price limit, even new books, and I don't mind waiting for those that are released with a higher price.

Of course I'm speaking as a customer in Europe. From what I've read here on MR, books are much more expensive in Australia, for example. That's probably perceived as an injustice by many Australian customers, because they're an English-speaking market and books in English are cheaper in the UK and US.

Books are very expensive in my native language too, but that's understandable, as the Estonian-speaking market is exceedingly small. Still, the price difference with locally published books is the main reason I buy most of my fiction in English, so I can sympathize with those who complain about high local prices.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

I agree with this, and btw I personally haven't complained about prices or evil publishers. Book prices are really pretty affordable, in my opinion. There are plenty of books under my personal price limit, even new books, and I don't mind waiting for those that are released with a higher price.

Of course I'm speaking as a customer in Europe. From what I've read here on MR, books are much more expensive in Australia, for example. That's probably perceived as an injustice by many Australian customers, because they're an English-speaking market and books in English are cheaper in the UK and US.

Books are very expensive in my native language too, but that's understandable, as the Estonian-speaking market is exceedingly small. Still, the price difference with locally published books is the main reason I buy most of my fiction in English, so I can sympathize with those who complain about high local prices.

Book prices in a given location tend to be driven by a number of things, such as legacy contracts, different publishers, and local taxes, tariffs, exchange rates, shipping cost and local laws. Things can get very complex very quickly. Things that don't make much sense today may be because of some contract that was signed 20 years ago. It's a lot easier and emotionally more satisfying to blame some big company, but usually even big corporate accountants aren't trying to stick it to someone.

One of the downsides with web boards and threads is that conversations become co-mingled. Thus, a post may be a response to multiple other posters.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Books are very expensive in my native language too, but that's understandable, as the Estonian-speaking market is exceedingly small. Still, the price difference with locally published books is the main reason I buy most of my fiction in English, so I can sympathize with those who complain about high local prices.

Then again, if you wanted more Estonian books....you’d buy them to incentivize their creation.

Of course, you aren’t obligated to, nobody is. But there is a direct connection between Estonians that do pay price and the existence of those books. Just like for any particular author.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by leebase

+1

I've heard some express such appreciation for Calibre that they send the developer money....even when they don't have to. It is far more likely the developer will keep improving Calibre if he keeps making money from it. It MAY be the case that he just likes to do the work and will continue anyway. It's MORE likely that -- if he made enough money -- he could give full time effort into making improvements, and doing so quicker.

You know...just like an author writing books.

Me....I'm a free rider...taking what he makes for free and what others support with their money. But I don't kid myself. I'm not supporting him just because I use his product. I'm no more value to him than those who don't use his product. Really, I'm morally worse.



I've tried to help people reconsider books as SEPARATE from meaningless commodities like milk or cars. They are works of art, created by an artist. Thus, if I appreciate the art and would like MORE from the artist, I SHOULD (if I can) support the art with my money.



In other words: you don't matter (to them) and you never did

You need to do a little research into open source and free software. Kovid has, for whatever reasons, chosen to make Calibre available for free. I have little doubt he could have made a lot of money had he chosen to go the commercial route. You are not a freeloader in the derogative sense in which you use that word because you buy something at the price at which it is offered. Nor is there anything morally wrong with you choosing to buy a cheaper book over a more expensive alternative. It happens every day in a market economy. Price is one basis on which sellers compete. Often the predominant one.

As much as I appreciate your patronising attempts to convince me and others that books are not commodities, I do not agree. Published books are commercial products. Many are deliberately written as such. This does not exclude them from being works of art, though too many of them are bad works of art. But works of art are themselves commodities. The greatest "priceless" works of art cease to be commodities, but when they do change hands it is at a price. But a print of the Mona Lisa does not sell for huge amounts of money. It is the scarcity and uniqueness of the original that attracts most of the value. The original is not a commodity. The prints are. With few if any exceptions, published books are also.

And, being commodities, they are priced as commodities and subject to whatever competition exists in the marketplace. Tradpub books compete with Indies. Books of all types compete with television and movies and music and games. And indeed with sports and other leisure activity. People's time is scarce and all sorts of products and activities compete for that time.

I have no objections to your somewhat romantic view of books as special snowflakes, nor do I object to you paying more than required to obtain a copy of a book. You are not a fool or a dupe for choosing to follow your own moral code, even a mistaken one. If you are happy with the value you are getting, that is what matters.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by leebase

Then again, if you wanted more Estonian books....you’d buy them to incentivize their creation.

Of course, you aren’t obligated to, nobody is. But there is a direct connection between Estonians that do pay price and the existence of those books. Just like for any particular author.

I do buy some Estonian authors. What I don't buy in Estonian are translated fiction books (unless there is no English translation at all, for example some books translated from Russian or Finnish). If there is an English translation available, I'll usually buy that. Because it's usually several times cheaper.

Occasionally I buy translated nonfiction, because I often prefer to read nonfiction in Estonian rather than in English, but not always.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I'm not considered particularly wealthy, but I tend to buy somewhere around 200 to 300 books a year. A few months ago, I posted how many books per year I've purchased over the last 5+ years and the average price per book. As I recall it was a bit in excess of $10 per book, but not a whole lot. I buy roughly a third of my books at hard back prices.

New release hardbacks are $35-45 (sometimes even more) in my country. They really are for the wealthy, or perhaps for a special gift occasion, or for people who read very few books a year. If they were only ten bucks that would be a rather different proposition. (I still wouldn't buy them for accessibility reasons, mind you.) I don't know any regular people who are dropping forty bucks on a coffee.

But every author I know values their library readers as much as they do any others. And particularly love it when their library readers place purchase requests with their local libraries (which I do quite a lot) - it's not only a sale, but it gets the book into the hands of more readers who may not have picked it up otherwise. I only know of one or two writers who have gone on record as disdaining library readers, and they were very roundly criticised for their stance.

[leebase]

Of course ther isn’t anything morally wrong in using open source software without paying for it. BUT - to receive great value from what others produce...and give nothing back when you could...is “less than” the virtues of someone who supports those products that bring value.

It’s like if your neighbors throw a block party and you show up and eat food that other people brought...and you didn’t bring any yourself. Nobody is going to say anything. They will smile and tell you how happy they are that you came. But you should realize that the party only exists because people spent money to make it so. If you have the money to participate in pitching in....and you just don’t “because nobody said you had to”....you are “less than”.

When I bought my house 25 years ago, there was a home owners association. There were dues and there were picnics and Easter egg hunts and the like. It was nice. My wife and I contributed. There came a time when the main organizer sold their home and moved away. And nobody wanted to be HO president....nobody wanted to organize. And we haven’t had any neighborhood events for more than 10 years. It’s too bad for the young kids growing up in the neighborhood now.

One day you are the kid checking out books from the library and going to the fun neighborhood picnics and eating food and playing games...and you don’t pay for any of it. Then one day you are an adult and it’s your turn to pay, your turn to organize.

Or you don’t...and the nice things you enjoy go away.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by leebase

One day you are the kid checking out books from the library and going to the fun neighborhood picnics and eating food and playing games...and you don’t pay for any of it. Then one day you are an adult and it’s your turn to pay, your turn to organize.

Or you don’t...and the nice things you enjoy go away.

Oh, so now only children are morally allowed to check out books from the library? Not tax-paying adults who contribute to their communities in many ways?

This is rubbish through and through.

Signed, a library patron who has organised block parties and welcomed everyone, didn't quietly assess contributions and side-eye those who had less

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Get off your high horse, I said no such thing. Geeze, for a forum about reading, there sure are a lot of people who have trouble doing it. If you vote with your dollars by not buying books from publishers, then why should they care what you think? You aren't a customer to them and quite likely will never be.

No, you get off your high horse. Stop acting as if you and you alone are carrying your beloved authors by buying a HC at release. You think you pay the author? Think again. The author has already been paid. You are merely paying the publisher. If you wanted your dollars to go directly into the authors pocket with a royalty check, then you must wait until long after the release, once the book earned out, and buy a book then (any format will do). Since you won't agree to that notion, then I will have to remind you that ALL customers matter and carry the author. Hard cover, paperback, and even library patrons. One exception is second hand, maybe.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

You think you pay the author? Think again. The author has already been paid. You are merely paying the publisher. If you wanted your dollars to go directly into the authors pocket with a royalty check, then you must wait until long after the release, once the book earned out, and buy a book then (any format will do).

Another way is to see if your favourites have a Patreon or similar page. I support several of my favourite authors this way. Despite being a library-borrowing freeloader who doesn't care about the world around me.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by meeera

Another way is to see if your favourites have a Patreon or similar page. I support several of my favourite authors this way. Despite being a library-borrowing freeloader who doesn't care about the world around me.

A much better idea than buying overpriced hard cover books. The author keeps all of the money. Grossly unfair to the Multi-National Big 5, of course. Perhaps they should establish their own Patreon type pages.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

You need to do a little research into open source and free software. Kovid has, for whatever reasons, chosen to make Calibre available for free. I have little doubt he could have made a lot of money had he chosen to go the commercial route. ...
.

I seem to recall at some point he did commercialize it from the stand point he licensed it to some company to use, but yea, I think a lot of people hit the donate button.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

No, you get off your high horse. Stop acting as if you and you alone are carrying your beloved authors by buying a HC at release. You think you pay the author? Think again. The author has already been paid. You are merely paying the publisher. If you wanted your dollars to go directly into the authors pocket with a royalty check, then you must wait until long after the release, once the book earned out, and buy a book then (any format will do). Since you won't agree to that notion, then I will have to remind you that ALL customers matter and carry the author. Hard cover, paperback, and even library patrons. One exception is second hand, maybe.

Dang man, don't you ever actually read my post? If you do, then either your reading comprehension needs some work, or you are deliberately trying to twist it into some narrative for rhetorical purposes. Either way, it would be nice if you would limit your comments to what I actually say, rather than words you try to cram into my mouth.

I said this is what I do to support my favored authors. No where do I say or imply that I am the only person who supports my favored authors. Authors are paid per copy sold. They do not earn a salary from the publisher, so yes, when I buy a book, that author gets money for the book I bought. They get more money for a hard back than a paper back since it's a percentage of the price of the book. That money may apply to their advance, or they may have already earned out in which case they get a check for their sales at some point in the future.

This information is easily available to anyone willing to do a google search. It's also been said numerous times in this forum by people who are in the industry.

If you are a library patron and only get your books there, then you do not carry an author, unless of course you belong to a private library that is subscription based. Most libraries in the US are supported by tax dollars from all the people who pay taxes in that tax district. A library patron no more supports an author than he or she pays a police officer's salary (for those who want to try to talk their way out of a ticket by telling the cop they pay the cop's salary).

In my local tax district, libraries, like schools, are supported from property taxes, so unless you are a property owner, you don't even have that thin reed for support. I'm a property owner and I have no problem with my money going to libraries. They serve a useful purpose, just like jails, police stations and schools. But that doesn't imply that I personally pay the cops or teacher's salary. It certainly doesn't imply that because the local police department buys guns that gun manufacturers should be sending me a thank you note.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I said this is what I do to support my favored authors. No where do I say or imply that I am the only person who supports my favored authors. Authors are paid per copy sold. They do not earn a salary from the publisher, so yes, when I buy a book, that author gets money for the book I bought. They get more money for a hard back than a paper back since it's a percentage of the price of the book. That money may apply to their advance, or they may have already earned out in which case they get a check for their sales at some point in the future.

Elaborating, if you buy a full priced hardcover the author will get perhaps 15% if they have earned out. Otherwise, of course, they get nothing unless and until they do earn out. A full priced tradpub ebook the royalty rate will be about 25%. ff you buy a full price Indie e-book from Amazon the author usually gets 70%. Quite a difference in incentives. And there are wide variations. The last I looked, for instance, Bookouture, a more innovative traditional publisher now acquired by Hachette paid 50% royalty on its e-books.

Originally Posted by pwalker8

If you are a library patron and only get your books there, then you do not carry an author, unless of course you belong to a private library that is subscription based. Most libraries in the US are supported by tax dollars from all the people who pay taxes in that tax district. A library patron no more supports an author than he or she pays a police officer's salary (for those who want to try to talk their way out of a ticket by telling the cop they pay the cop's salary).

In my local tax district, libraries, like schools, are supported from property taxes, so unless you are a property owner, you don't even have that thin reed for support. I'm a property owner and I have no problem with my money going to libraries. They serve a useful purpose, just like jails, police stations and schools. But that doesn't imply that I personally pay the cops or teacher's salary. It certainly doesn't imply that because the local police department buys guns that gun manufacturers should be sending me a thank you note.

But of course libraries do themselves buy the books, often in substantial numbers and at higher prices than direct sales to consumers. What a library buys is of course heavily influenced by the demand or expected demand from its patrons for particular authors and books. Simply by borrowing a book or successfully requesting that a library purchase a book a library patron is contributing to the profits of the publisher and, to a lesser extent, the author. The money is the same whether it arrives directly or indirectly.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

If you are a library patron and only get your books there, then you do not carry an author, unless of course you belong to a private library that is subscription based.

Or if you live in a country (such as the UK), where authors are paid when their books are borrowed from the library. It isn't a huge amount (8.52p per borrow at the moment), but it is something, and it goes directly to the author, not the publisher.
I would imagine that particularly for authors children's books, this could add up to a noticeable amount. (Capped at £6,600 per year, just under 300 authors were paid this last year.)