The Vent and Rant Thread

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Sure. And very easy to say when you're not strapped for cash.

Listen: I think it's an outlandish story. It really blows my mind that someone would do such a thing and not think that it was wrong. Especially when it is happening in the USA.

What I'm trying to say is just that ethics and morality are easy notions for the well endowed. Not so easy for the one who has nothing.

You can't just say that ethics, morality, caring are universal principles. Perspectives are probably quite different from, for example, the gutter.

That is complete BS. With a capital "B". We aren't talking about 'the gutter'. We're talking parental advice being given and taken by an educated (but not ethical) principal.

"cashed strapped" means you either find another way, or do without. You think this is the only school thats cash strapped? Teachers are either paying for their own supplies or their doing without. No one in my area is giving extra credit for classroom supplies.

Its too hard if you are poor to have ethics or morality?

I would say that depends on how you are raised, what you are taught by your parents.

Been there, done that. Passed it on to my own.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Say that to the pocket thief in Bombay.

No need to, I have no issue with him, or you for that matter, but I do disagree with you.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by kennyc

No need to, I have no issue with him, or you for that matter, but I do disagree with you.

You do have a moral issue with him. You have the means to help him. But you don't. (and neither do I).

[ShortNCuddlyAm]

Originally Posted by Laz116

What I'm trying to say is just that ethics and morality are easy notions for the well endowed. Not so easy for the one who has nothing.

You can't just say that ethics, morality, caring are universal principles. Perspectives are probably quite different from, for example, the gutter.

Personally, I don't think that what I consider to be sound ethics and morality are universal principles. I also don't believe that your wealth has any bearing on how intrinsically ethical or moral a person is.

I've known people who were very definitely well off whose ethics and morals were highly dubious to put it mildly. And I've known people almost at rock bottom who would and did gladly put others before themselves.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by ShortNCuddlyAm

Personally, I don't think that what I consider to be sound ethics and morality are universal principles. I also don't believe that your wealth has any bearing on how intrinsically ethical or moral a person is.

I've known people who were very definitely well off whose ethics and morals were highly dubious to put it mildly. And I've known people almost at rock bottom who would and did gladly put others before themselves.

I actually agree.

However I think that freedom from worrying about self preservation due to good finances (clumsy, I know, but couldn't find the right english word for what I wanted to say) does make it easier to speak of morality. If you're down and out you probably don't worry too much about anything else than the means to stay alive.

I think the global recession vs. the climate crisis is an example of that. No one cares one bit about the climate crises when ones own economy is severely threatened. And hey... It's after all mostly a problem for the third world countries in Africa and Asia.

If we do have to talk biology: organisms will always try to save themselves first... morality and ethics come second hand.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Laz116

Sure. And very easy to say when you're not strapped for cash.

Listen: I think it's an outlandish story. It really blows my mind that someone would do such a thing and not think that it was wrong. Especially when it is happening in the USA.

What I'm trying to say is just that ethics and morality are easy notions for the well endowed. Not so easy for the one who has nothing.

You can't just say that ethics, morality, caring are universal principles. Perspectives are probably quite different from, for example, the gutter.

"Knowing right from wrong" is a variable, dependent upon time and place.

Consider the "Nigerian 419" scams. A friend was involved in international education and had students from Africa who said "You can't trust anyone from Nigeria". The issue seemed to be tribalism. In most of Africa, the tribe is the most important social unit. You are part of a family, families aggregate into clans, and clans are parts of tribes.

In situations like that, you can get morality which divides people into "us" and "them", where "they" are "not my family/clan/tribe", and a different set of rules apply. From the Nigerian 419 scammer's viewpoint, what they are doing isn't wrong, because the folks they are scamming aren't their people.

You can see it here, too, in detestable cases of "They aren't our kind, so normal rules don't apply". There was an uproar a while back when a major midwestern meat packing company owned and operated by Hasidic Jews was raided by the government, and shut down for violations of things like child labor laws. (Management was employing Hispanic illegal immigrants at less than minimum wage, including kids, because they were illegal and couldn't complain.)

A friend was a nurse with a Hasidic quadriplegic woman as a patient. Her patient was outraged when she heard the news. "How dare they call themselves Jews! How dare they call themselves Hasids!" I didn't blame her a bit, as such behavior is quite contrary to what I know of Judaism and the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov. But it can happen in cultures which assume that they are somehow special and apart from the rest of mankind. You get an implicit assumption that others aren't quite human, and you don't need to follow the same rules in dealing with them as you do with your own.

For an example of the effects on culture of harsh environments, look up the Ik people in what is currently Uganda in Africa. They are considered among the bottom 5% of the most impoverished people in the world, and the effects on their culture have been profound.
______
Dennis

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

"Knowing right from wrong" is a variable, dependent upon time and place.

Consider the "Nigerian 419" scams. A friend was involved in international education and had students from Africa who said "You can't trust anyone from Nigeria". The issue seemed to be tribalism. In most of Africa, the tribe is the most important social unit. You are part of a family, families aggregate into clans, and clans are parts of tribes.

In situations like that, you can get morality which divides people into "us" and "them", where "they" are "not my family/clan/tribe", and a different set of rules apply. From the Nigerian 419 scammer's viewpoint, what they are doing isn't wrong, because the folks they are scamming aren't their people.

You can see it here, too, in detestable cases of "They aren't our kind, so normal rules don't apply". There was an uproar a while back when a major midwestern meat packing company owned and operated by Hasidic Jews was raided by the government, and shut down for violations of things like child labor laws. (Management was employing Hispanic illegal immigrants at less than minimum wage, including kids, because they were illegal and couldn't complain.)

A friend was a nurse with a Hasidic quadriplegic woman as a patient. Her patient was outraged when she heard the news. "How dare they call themselves Jews! How dare they call themselves Hasids!" I didn't blame her a bit, as such behavior is quite contrary to what I know of Judaism and the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov. But it can happen in cultures which assume that they are somehow special and apart from the rest of mankind. You get an implicit assumption that others aren't quite human, and you don't need to follow the same rules in dealing with them as you do with your own.

For an example of the effects on culture of harsh environments, look up the Ik people in what is currently Uganda in Africa. They are considered among the bottom 5% of the most impoverished people in the world, and the effects on their culture have been profound.
______
Dennis

But deeming other as inhuman, thus being outside of moral or ethical consideration, isn't that just another form of (belief in) universality?

I think, what I'm arguing is a somewhat different perspective: namely that discusions of ethics is generally something left to those who have a surplus life.

Others don't have the luxury.

About the 419 nigeria scammers. What do you think of the westerners who for the fun (and they justify themselves by saving other victims by taking up the nigerian scammers time) make these scammers go through hell (with outlandish stories, that really shows how much the nigerian scammers want the money)? They probably wouldn't scam if they were in our position, right.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

....

I think the global recession vs. the climate crisis is an example of that. No one cares one bit about the climate crises when ones own economy is severely threatened. ....

This is simply wrong. In the midst of the economic crisis countries and people are working to solve the climate crisis.

That said, let's please keep this focused on the point which was Buying Grades and School Administrators that are in favor of the idea. That school administrator is not "fighting for survival in a Darwinian battle" nor was she under economic stress -- but she certainly had no ethics or sense of what was right. That is the trigger for my initial comment which was directed at society in general and what I see as an increasing loss of caring, morals and understanding of right and wrong and acting on those beliefs. For me it is clearly wrong to "Buy Grades" perhaps you think otherwise.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

..

I think, what I'm arguing is a somewhat different perspective: namely that discusions of ethics is generally something left to those who have a surplus life.

No, it's the ethics that MAKE life, the foundation for civilized life. We are not talking about DISCUSSING them, but living them.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by kennyc

This is simply wrong. In the midst of the economic crisis countries and people are working to solve the climate crisis.

That said, let's please keep this focused on the point which was Buying Grades and School Administrators that are in favor of the idea. That school administrator is not "fighting for survival in a Darwinian battle" nor was she under economic stress -- but she certainly had no ethics or sense of what was right. That is the trigger for my initial comment which was directed at society in general and what I see as an increasing loss of caring, morals and understanding of right and wrong and acting on those beliefs. For me it is clearly wrong to "Buy Grades" perhaps you think otherwise.

Not really working very hard at the climate crisis, are we? CO2 emissions continue to rise. No binding agreement in sight in Copenhagen. In the western countries there has been a small dip in co2 emissions due to the financial crisis. Not so much production going on and people cutting back on red meat etc. But as a climate researcher recently said when asked about how well we fared: we are still at zero.




Regarding the topic of buying grades:

I am all with you.

But it's a slippery slope you know. Clear the fungus by accepting a bribe etc. etc.

Nothing is black and white. But I do think that I have already said how outlandish a story I think it is considering it is happening in USA (or any other western country).

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by kennyc

No, it's the ethics that MAKE life, the foundation for civilized life. We are not talking about DISCUSSING them, but living them.

somewhat of an antidarwinian, are we?

Historically I find it hard to believe that selflessness has paid off.

Still I'm all for it. But then again, I'm an idiot.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

...
Regarding the topic of buying grades:

I am all with you.

But it's a slippery slope you know. Clear the fungus by accepting a bribe etc. etc.

Nothing is black and white. But I do think that I have already said how outlandish a story I think it is considering it is happening in USA (or any other western country).

Certainly not all black and white, but there are many things that are, others that are not.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Laz116

somewhat of an antidarwinian, are we?
...

Not at all, if you understand evolution, including evolution of cooperation and societies, then you'll understand that it is not all about individuals.

but for this individual it is bedtime. Night-night.

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Laz116

... I find it troublesome when we, the rich, start to cast guilt and blame upon others. We should look inwards first...

In his short story, "Poor Man's Pudding and Rich Man's Crumbs," Herman Melville said: "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed."

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

In his short story, "Poor Man's Pudding and Rich Man's Crumbs," Herman Melville said: "Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed."

Is it good?

I loved Bartleby the schrivener. But haven't read anything else by Melville as of yet? Right now I'm actually considering whether I should read Moby Dick or Don Quijote.

While I'm considering I'm reading some semicrap fantasy of course