"American Gods" discussion

[WT Sharpe]

I've loved all the Sandman stories I've read. He's a very unlikely "super"-hero. With no special powers of his own, this older, obviously out-of shape gentleman relies on sleeping gas canisters in performing his deeds of daring-do.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I've loved all the Sandman stories I've read. He's a very unlikely "super"-hero. With no special powers of his own, this older, obviously out-of shape gentleman relies on sleeping gas canisters in performing his deeds of daring-do.

It's not that Sandman, although I believe he appears in the Neil Gaiman version as well (as an incarnation of the true Sandman).

[WT Sharpe]

Originally Posted by Latinandgreek

It's not that Sandman, although I believe he appears in the Neil Gaiman version as well (as an incarnation of the true Sandman).

It's not? Then I haven't read the Gaiman sandman. Too bad, I liked that old guy. I only go to comics stores once every few years, and I never know what to buy, but it looked interesting and did prove to be fun. What's Gaiman's Sandman like?

[Ea]

I have just glanced through my notes and bookmarks, and started to wonder what the over-arching theme of the book is. What prompted me to think about it is this quote:

"... Shadow put his own coin in the slot. He took his slip of paper. He read it.

EVERY ENDING IS A NEW BEGINNING. "

I wondered whether this was significant to the book as a whole. Shadow dies on the tree as a sacrifice, only to be revived. Hinzelmann takes a yearly sacrifice of youth in exchange for keeping the town young and alive. The battle that Odin and Loke stages are a re-telling of Ragnarok (in Voluspa it is the end of the old world and the start of a new, with Balder and Hod as its new rulers)

In short, I wonder if not the theme of death and renewal of life is important. And that would support Shadow being Balder (if Gaiman follows that school of interpretation*)

But now I wonder if Gaiman gave the role of Hod, Balder's brother, to anyone in the novel?

*an interpretation which I don't personally agree with as I find it too simplistic, but that's neither here nor there - I didn't write the book *lol*

[recluse]

The Endless Cycle.

Perhaps that is the answer.
There will always be gods. With the collapse of the old belief system, a new one rises from the ashes. The names may change, but they are the same old gods in new garb.
Humanity is a wayward child. It requires a set of rules to live by. Gods to emulate. Gods to fear. The "flavor" of the belief system is not as important as the existance of a belief system.
There will always be an "All Father/Mother", a "Trickster", a "Serpent" and a "Hero". Only the names have been changed.
I humbly await Ea's opinion.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by recluse

The Endless Cycle.

Perhaps that is the answer.
There will always be gods. With the collapse of the old belief system, a new one rises from the ashes. The names may change, but they are the same old gods in new garb.

But the old belief system doesn't collapse. The potentially cataclysmic battle collapses - due to Shadow. While Shadow himself is renewed, the world order stays the same. That's a little strange, no?

Originally Posted by recluse

Humanity is a wayward child. It requires a set of rules to live by. Gods to emulate. Gods to fear. The "flavor" of the belief system is not as important as the existance of a belief system.
There will always be an "All Father/Mother", a "Trickster", a "Serpent" and a "Hero". Only the names have been changed.
I humbly await Ea's opinion.

Yes, perhaps. Yes, there will be. Though I'm afraid I've studied Norse mythology too much to buy the easy interpretations. E.g. Loke has some of the characteristics of a trickster, but he is much more complex than that. Odin might be called "All-father", but we should not forget his 160 (circa) other names. He is dark and strange like a mad scientist.

Though what I could "worry" about here, is that Gaiman follows the "easy" interpretations - and that I don't see the wood for the trees.

[recluse]

Perhaps Shadow represents humanity's stubborn refusal to accept that all things move on. Shadow's denial of his potential on a larger scale.

As to Gaiman's "simpler" approach, we all agree the subject matter is vastly complex. So complex that perhaps his choice was to appeal to the widest possible audience.

Your thoughts, dear lady?

[Ea]

Originally Posted by recluse

Perhaps Shadow represents humanity's stubborn refusal to accept that all things move on. Shadow's denial of his potential on a larger scale.

Yes and no. What I felt reading it was that Shadow accepts his fate - he says 'yes' to almost all (all?) that life throws in his way. Shadow is IMO an example of accepting your fate and living with it.

Originally Posted by recluse

As to Gaiman's "simpler" approach, we all agree the subject matter is vastly complex. So complex that perhaps his choice was to appeal to the widest possible audience.

Your thoughts, dear lady?

Obviously. But from this and other of Gaiman's stories I've gotten the impression that he is quite knowledgeable about Norse mythology - so I should not simplify it too much.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Ea

But the old belief system doesn't collapse. The potentially cataclysmic battle collapses - due to Shadow. While Shadow himself is renewed, the world order stays the same. That's a little strange, no?

But.. But.. I don't think things are the same.

When Shadow returns to Czernobog's apartment to pay his debt from the checkers game, the apartment is in the middle of spring cleaning and Shadow sits and waits for Czernobog's return. Czernobog returns gets his hammer and then says to Shadow:

Then he stood up. He said, "I owe you much. More than you know.
Because of you, things are changing. This is springtime. The true
spring.".

[recluse]

Shadow said yes to everything.
But who is Shadow?
He remains. Unchanged. Still a shadow.

And I know Gaiman knows his mythology. But perhaps the ideas are too big for his audience, who may not share his knowledge.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

But..C But.. I don't think things are the same.

When Shadow returns to Czernobog's apartment to pay his debt from the checkers game, the apartment is in the middle of spring cleaning and Shadow sits and waits for Czernobog's return. Czernobog returns gets his hammer and then says to Shadow:

Then he stood up. He said, "I owe you much. More than you know.
Because of you, things are changing. This is springtime. The true
spring.".

Very good point! I hadn't noticed it. I'd just read that section as the "normal" transition from the "winter god" (Czernobog) to the "summer god" (Bielebog). I hadn't seen anything special, but clearly it must be.

[jgaiser]

Originally Posted by Ea

Very good point! I hadn't noticed it. I'd just read that section as the "normal" transition from the "winter god" (Czernobog) to the "summer god" (Bielebog). I hadn't seen anything special, but clearly it must be.

The impression I got from the book was that Bielebog has not been around for some long time. Now things are changing in their world enough that he is returning.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by recluse

The Endless Cycle.

Perhaps that is the answer.
There will always be gods. With the collapse of the old belief system, a new one rises from the ashes. The names may change, but they are the same old gods in new garb.
Humanity is a wayward child. It requires a set of rules to live by. Gods to emulate. Gods to fear. The "flavor" of the belief system is not as important as the existance of a belief system.
There will always be an "All Father/Mother", a "Trickster", a "Serpent" and a "Hero". Only the names have been changed.
I humbly await Ea's opinion.

Great post! That's sort of what Neil Gaiman's "Sandman" is about, and his characters, "The Endless", who are representations of Death, Desire, Dream, etc. and who belong to all cultures, under varying guises.

[Latinandgreek]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

It's not? Then I haven't read the Gaiman sandman. Too bad, I liked that old guy. I only go to comics stores once every few years, and I never know what to buy, but it looked interesting and did prove to be fun. What's Gaiman's Sandman like?

His Sandman is the immortal King of Dreams (and stories). His 6 brothers and sisters are the immortal representations of Death, Desire, Destruction, Destiny, Despair and Delirium. The comic follows a decade or so of their existence. That's all I can say without giving too much of the plot away, in case you decide to read the graphic novels.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by jgaiser

The impression I got from the book was that Bielebog has not been around for some long time. Now things are changing in their world enough that he is returning.

I think you are right. I was only seeing a normal winter/summer cycle. BTW, we see the same spring motif with Lakeside.