How many people want to write a book?

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

I've gotten as far as Heinlein's #3, at least with fiction. (I have published non-fiction.) It's excellent advice, but the first few rejection slips sure are discouraging!

I understand Heinlein's point of view about Podkayne, but I think he was a bit confused himself about who his audience was. As I understand it, he took the challenge to write a book "for girls," but then wanted a moral that was really aimed at parents who don't take time to raise their children.

Which I agree was the point he was trying to make. I always thought the moral of the story was "You can have a career and kids, but if you have both, the kids come first."

I've always felt that both endings left doubt as to who the main character really was-- Heinlein seems to have focused an awful lot on Clark at the end, in a way that re-interprets much of the rest of the story. I can't recall any of his other YA books ending with the main character dying/comatose and someone else taking over the narrative.

None of his other YA offerings do that. None of his adult novels either, offhand.

For that matter, Friday has a ridiculously "happy" ending compared to Podkayne-- almost exactly the ending Heinlein refused to write for Podkayne. All this makes me wonder what was going on in the Grand Master's life at the time to make him so bitter about the prospects of young women growing up to manage both careers and families.

I didn't see him as bitter, just cautionary. And I think his views evolved on the issue. One of the earlier stories ("The Menace from Earth", I think, without Looking Stuff Up) has the female protagonist starting by wanting to be something like ship's captain on a colony ship, but by the end studying creche engineering, pediatrics and the like, abandoning a desire to take on a male role and working instead on a high tech female role as one of those responsible for the care and raising of infants and small children on such a vessel.

And Heinlein didn't precisely "refuse" to write a happy ending -- he did change the original ending at editorial request -- but he wasn't happy about it.

But I think Heinlein essentially had a conflict between the story he was trying to tell and the audience his publisher was selling to. Not the only one, either -- as I recall, _Starship Troopers_ was originally intended for the Scribners YA line too, but got bounced as inappropriate for the audience. That one was essentially a "coming of age" story, cahrting the moral growth of the protagonist, but no real surprise Scribners said no.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by europas_ice

Wouldn't that be nice! Usually the royalties don't add up to all that much though. I think you'd have to be a massive, bestselling hit before they really start adding up.

Most books don't generate royalties. And agents like to negotiate advances large enough that the book doesn't earn out.
______
Dennis

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Which I agree was the point he was trying to make. I always thought the moral of the story was "You can have a career and kids, but if you have both, the kids come first."

But that moral doesn't make a ton of sense to the stated audience, the way it's presented in this story.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I didn't see him as bitter, just cautionary. And I think his views evolved on the issue. One of the earlier stories ("The Menace from Earth", I think, without Looking Stuff Up) has the female protagonist starting by wanting to be something like ship's captain on a colony ship, but by the end studying creche engineering, pediatrics and the like, abandoning a desire to take on a male role and working instead on a high tech female role as one of those responsible for the care and raising of infants and small children on such a vessel.

No, in "The Menace from Earth," the main character, Holly, decided marrying her engineering partner didn't sound like a bad idea. She didn't drop her engineering plans. Personally, I can't see why being a ship's captain (which wasn't Holly's goal in the first place) should be a "male" role and creche engineering a "high tech female" role, but that's my opinion, I guess.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

But I think Heinlein essentially had a conflict between the story he was trying to tell and the audience his publisher was selling to. Not the only one, either -- as I recall, _Starship Troopers_ was originally intended for the Scribners YA line too, but got bounced as inappropriate for the audience. That one was essentially a "coming of age" story, cahrting the moral growth of the protagonist, but no real surprise Scribners said no.
______
Dennis

The thing is, Heinlein wrote Podkayne when an editor suggested, in his hearing, that she didn't think a male author could write a book "for girls." In this case, he quite explicitly chose the market, and then failed to deliver. Podkayne has a lot of interesting ideas in it, and I've read and enjoyed it for what it has to offer many a time. But as a "book for girls" it fails to match his "books for boys." Heinlein's YA fiction generally offers good character development, decent plotting, and great descriptions of a possible future world. His other YA books are largely about how the characters grow and change over the course of the story. His alleged protagonist in Podkaynedoes not grow or learn during the story (possibly with the exception of learning not to be taken advantage of by her rich older "friends," but that's a side-plot). Instead, all the character development takes place in her younger brother, Clark, crammed into the end of the book.

I suppose I should be hesitant to criticize the Grand Master, with no fiction publications to my name, but I (unlike the critics he complained about while alive) have read all his books, most of them several times each. So, abandoning the proper humility I might otherwise show a writer whom I respect so highly, I would suggest that if Heinlein wanted to write a book "for girls," even with the intended moral that family comes before career (and shouldn't this be true for male characters as well?) that Podkayne herself needed to come to that conclusion, not Uncle Tom, Clark, Dexter, her parents, or anyone else.

The plot needn't have changed at all-- just the way the story was told. Some serious thinking on Poddy's part about wanting to balance her own career vs. family desires would have been good. A conscious decision "on camera," as it were, to go back and save the baby fairy because she thought that was more important than her own life, rather than the same action presented as a "stupid thing Clark's sister did" would have been nice. Even casting her decision to go after Clark as a decision to put family before self-interest would have helped the moral along-- if it weren't presented as a stupid idea because clearly Clark was better at taking care of both of them than Poddy was.

Poddy comes across as a delusional girl who thinks she can become a starship pilot by charming men into tutoring her (rather than studying books or going to college), but is actually more interested in marriage and babies and hasn't a brain in her little head. And it gets her killed (in his original story). I can't think of another main character in any Heinlein book or story for whom he shows so much contempt.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by nekokami

But that moral doesn't make a ton of sense to the stated audience, the way it's presented in this story.

Agreed. It's aimed at a different group.

No, in "The Menace from Earth," the main character, Holly, decided marrying her engineering partner didn't sound like a bad idea. She didn't drop her engineering plans. Personally, I can't see why being a ship's captain (which wasn't Holly's goal in the first place) should be a "male" role and creche engineering a "high tech female" role, but that's my opinion, I guess.

Agreed again. My point was that she shifted her goals in the direction of jobs involved with child-rearing traditionally done by women.

The story was written some years back. Had RAH written the same tale later, he might have done it differently. You can do an interesting analysis of RAH's work in terms of a man systematically examining the assumptions he was raised with and asking "Does this make sense?" The answer was often "no", even if what he came up with instead was unsatisfactory for different reasons.

The thing is, Heinlein wrote Podkayne when an editor suggested, in his hearing, that she didn't think a male author could write a book "for girls." In this case, he quite explicitly chose the market, and then failed to deliver. Podkayne has a lot of interesting ideas in it, and I've read and enjoyed it for what it has to offer many a time. But as a "book for girls" it fails to match his "books for boys." Heinlein's YA fiction generally offers good character development, decent plotting, and great descriptions of a possible future world. His other YA books are largely about how the characters grow and change over the course of the story. His alleged protagonist in Podkaynedoes not grow or learn during the story (possibly with the exception of learning not to be taken advantage of by her rich older "friends," but that's a side-plot). Instead, all the character development takes place in her younger brother, Clark, crammed into the end of the book.

I'm not sure how much he actually develops. He was a budding little sociopath. About all we see at the end of the book is cracks appearing in his wall of certainty.

But yes, confusion over who the protagonist is is an issue.

I suppose I should be hesitant to criticize the Grand Master, with no fiction publications to my name, but I (unlike the critics he complained about while alive) have read all his books, most of them several times each. So, abandoning the proper humility I might otherwise show a writer whom I respect so highly, I would suggest that if Heinlein wanted to write a book "for girls," even with the intended moral that family comes before career (and shouldn't this be true for male characters as well?) that Podkayne herself needed to come to that conclusion, not Uncle Tom, Clark, Dexter, her parents, or anyone else.

Agreed. And the moral istrue for male characters. There's a strong implication that Clark is also largely the result of absentee parents.

The plot needn't have changed at all-- just the way the story was told. Some serious thinking on Poddy's part about wanting to balance her own career vs. family desires would have been good. A conscious decision "on camera," as it were, to go back and save the baby fairy because she thought that was more important than her own life, rather than the same action presented as a "stupid thing Clark's sister did" would have been nice. Even casting her decision to go after Clark as a decision to put family before self-interest would have helped the moral along-- if it weren't presented as a stupid idea because clearly Clark was better at taking care of both of them than Poddy was.

Poddy comes across as a delusional girl who thinks she can become a starship pilot by charming men into tutoring her (rather than studying books or going to college), but is actually more interested in marriage and babies and hasn't a brain in her little head. And it gets her killed (in his original story). I can't think of another main character in any Heinlein book or story for whom he shows so much contempt.

Agreed again.

As mentioned earlier, I think Heinlein had a conflict between the story he wanted to tell and the audience he was supposed to be writing for, and either failed to successfully resolve it, or more likely, failed to even see there was a conflict.
______
Dennis

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

As mentioned earlier, I think Heinlein had a conflict between the story he wanted to tell and the audience he was supposed to be writing for, and either failed to successfully resolve it, or more likely, failed to even see there was a conflict.
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Dennis

I'm inclined to think the latter, which is really too bad. I'm afraid I think he lost the argument about whether a male writer could write a good "girl's" book... and ended up writing a more confused jumble than was his usual, especially at the time.

In its place, I offer John Barnes' Orbital Resonance, which has a much more believable young female protagonist and in a way, deals with a similar issue of individual wants vs. community needs. Or, for the readers who prefer fantasy, Garth Nix's Abhorsen trilogy, or Charles De Lint's The Blue Girl.

[Andanzas]

Yeah, this should be a poll.

[grimo1re]

My husband has written a novel..actually more than one. I *love* them but he's found the whole getting published process so painful he's given up and now his creations are gathering dust in a (virtual) desk drawer. Perhaps I should encourage him to publish under Creative Commons? Any ideas on that?

The way he writes is to make a plot outline, we used to do that together. I have many happy memories of hammering out plot problems with him. Sometimes he'll collect photographs or images for the characters to flesh them out in his head. Once he's happy with the plot he'll sit down and write the whole thing from start to finish. He'll come home from work, put on some headphones and write. He'll keep doing that until it's finished and he'll go through a couple of drafts.

Wish I could do that. I write flash fiction on my blog ( http://grimo1re.wordpress.com/ ) but haven't had time or headspace the past couple of months. Too bad, I'm actually thinking about pulling it down...as I'm just too busy to keep it up on my own right now.

[mogui]

Originally Posted by grimo1re

My husband has written a novel..actually more than one. I *love* them but he's found the whole getting published process so painful he's given up and now his creations are gathering dust in a (virtual) desk drawer.

Perhaps he can remember the feeling of creating the works of fiction. It is a tremendous accomplishment. The act of creation can be an end in itself. Holly Lisle looks at it this way:

Looked at in the greater scheme of things, though, most ice skaters never skate in the Olympics, most football players never play in the Superbowl, and most violinists never fiddle in Carnegie Hall. I like your odds of making it as a pro writer a lot better than your odds of making it as a pro football player. You have much more control of your outcome, and you won't age out just as you're starting to get good. And knees are never an issue for a writer.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by grimo1re

My husband has written a novel..actually more than one. I *love* them but he's found the whole getting published process so painful he's given up and now his creations are gathering dust in a (virtual) desk drawer. Perhaps I should encourage him to publish under Creative Commons? Any ideas on that?

Read the license and see if it fits your wishes.

I've seen two sorts of work issued under Creative Commons. In one case, the book has a paper edition, but the author makes an electronic version available. Cory Doctorow does this with his SF. He feels that a writer's problem isn't piracy, it's obscurity, and the wider you can make your distribution, the better you will sell. He's doing well enough from writing that he quit his full time job, so I think he has a point. Of course, Cory is blessed with a publisher (Tor Books) who is more clueful about this than most.

In the second case, the author simply wants to get the work out where people can read it, and issues it under a CC license in electronic form.

I guess the big question is what your goals are. If your husband does wish to see his books published in an actual paper edition for which he'll be paid, CC issue may be a problem. Publishers of paper books might be scared away by the presence of a free electronic copy already in existence.

If you just want to get his work out there where folks can read it, CC licensing might be the way to go.

The way he writes is to make a plot outline, we used to do that together. I have many happy memories of hammering out plot problems with him. Sometimes he'll collect photographs or images for the characters to flesh them out in his head. Once he's happy with the plot he'll sit down and write the whole thing from start to finish. He'll come home from work, put on some headphones and write. He'll keep doing that until it's finished and he'll go through a couple of drafts.

Every writer has a different approach. The standard method of submission for a novel once you have a track record is outline plus sample chapters. For a new unpublished author, a full manuscript is a better idea. Until they've worked with you for a while, a publisher can't be sure you'll actually finish a book you sent an outline for.
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Dennis

[Lemurion]

Stands up AA style: "My nick's Lemurion and I'm an unpublished writer."

I'm currently working on readying a novel one publisher's had far too long without making a decision for an agency submission. I've got another one in need of editing (first draft complete) and am working on a third.

I'm going to be published, the question is when.

As to Heinlein, he did write some pretty good stories with girl protagonists which can be found in his posthumous collection Requiem.

[nekokami]

I have Requiem. I think you're thinking of the "Puddin'" stories. They were ok. "Cliff and the Calories" was so-so, but the other one was better -- I've forgotten its name now, and my copy of Requiem is packed away, with no ebook available, dagnabit!

Heinlein wrote about the origins of Puddin' (real name Maureen) in Expanded Universe:

The editor who disliked science fiction (and me) but liked my sales grumbled to me, on my delivering my annual boys' novel, that she did wish that someone would write girls' stories. I answered, "Very well, I'll write a story for girls. When do you want it?"

She was simultaneously astonished, offended, and amused at the ridiculous and arrogant notion that a mere man could write stories for girls. So that's how Puddin' was born: I started writing first-person-female-adolescent stories-but not for that old harridan....

I grew so fond of Maureen that I helped her to get rid of that excess weight, changed her name to "Podkayne," and moved her to Mars (along with her unbearable kid brother). And now and again she turns up under other names in other science fiction stories.

Which would be fine, except that the Puddin' stories are actually about her, and Podkayne, as I've pointed out, more or less wasn't.

[Lemurion]

Yup, those were the stories I was thinking of. I thought they were much better than Podkayne.

[grimo1re]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

If you just want to get his work out there where folks can read it, CC licensing might be the way to go.

Yeah, he's trying to figure out what he wants....thanks for the replies though!

[bowerbird]

i made a post in another thread that's relevant to this topic:
> https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...773#post100773

-bowerbird

[McDoof]

I have a (possibly mistaken) impression that ebook readers are well-read. So I'm wondering about using the community here as a sounding board for my own work.

Personally, I'm an American academic in Germany and working on my dissertation on US identity and culture, and the more I search around here on mobileread, the more I think I'd like to know what these people here think about the work.

Also I'm curious about publishing possibilities in ebook format. Once the thing's finished, I'd be very interested in digital distribution. Any tips?