iPad I beg every Apple Users' Attention!!

[scottjl]

HansTWN, thanks.

[tiananmen]

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

I hope that you understand that I'm saying that people being "exploited" happens in all developping countries. Not limited to China only.

And if industrialism is a way for workers to improve their financial life, why not? Don't put your western standards to all countries.

It is very hard to say such work can improve financial life for an worker in Foxconn under the high-rise inflation in China. Their monthly income can merely afford a basic living, without any substantial savings for their later life, not mention housing or other welfare.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Solicitous

Well it depends where the OP got his information from (no sources so hard to agree with him). I can see $11 being the cost of labour in the manufacturing process. If taking the OPs numbers for fact, the average worker in the factory earns 200 per month, say 10 hours a day at heck, 7 days a week. Total 280 hours for the month (70 hours * 4 weeks). At a rate of 200pm/280 hours comes to 70c roughly per hour. That means the $11 iPad manufacturing labor cost at 70c per hour works out at roughly 15 hours of human contact in the process.

But if $11 is claimed to be the entire cost....pfffft is all I can say.

This calculation is, of course, totally wrong. $11 is the labor cost that goes into the product from Foxconn's side. What about the labor that is needed to make the components?

[tiananmen]

Originally Posted by luqmaninbmore

Sony 900 is made in Japan as was the Sony 500. I believe the iRex DR800SG is made in the Netherlands. Some Sony Walkmen are made in Malaysia, an up and coming progressive Muslim economic power.

I haven't owned a Sony 500, or 900, neither DR800SG, but my Sony PRS 600 is indeed made in China as it marks on the back cover.

I only mentioned Sony's Digital Reader Series, yes, some Sony's Walkman MP3/4 are assembled in Japan and Malaysia.

but this is only the smaller part, if you think iPhone/iPad/Kindle, the latters are assembled and finalized in Foxconn's factory in China.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by tiananmen

It is very hard to say such work can improve financial life for an worker in Foxconn under the high-rise inflation in China. Their monthly income can merely afford a basic living, without any substantial savings for their later life, not mention housing or other welfare.

They get factory supplied housing and meals. And they get pretty good wages in Shenzhen, even higher than in other areas. Yes, many people earn $400 a month and buy a $600 phone and spend a few 100 on clothing each month. People in China have only recently come into money during the last few years and now they want everything right away. They go out and spend (in relation to their incomes) vast amounts. Then they will say "I don't have enough to make a basic living". But that is not poverty.

Yes, rampant housing speculation has pushed housing prices sky high -- in many areas housing prices are higher than in the US or Europe. But the factories have nothing to do with that.

[Solicitous]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

This calculation is, of course, totally wrong. $11 is the labor cost that goes into the product from Foxconn's side. What about the labor that is needed to make the components?

Components are made by other companies, eg: LG. The theoretical prices I gave was the cost by Foxxcon to assemble the iPad by human hands.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Solicitous

Components are made by other companies, eg: LG. The theoretical prices I gave was the cost by Foxxcon to assemble the iPad by human hands.

I know -- my point being that the total cost of labor going into the product is a lot higher than $11. Since you have to add the cost of the labor incurred at Foxconn's suppliers.

[tiananmen]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Maybe you are too young to remember 1997. A big outcry and similar articles appear several times each year since then when some journalists want to write something that is sure to get easy publicity. It has nothing to do with Apple, it is usually labor unions who try to stir up some public sympathy so that they get more concessions in talks with employers in Europe and/or the US. All big corporations have been targeted. The big guys are being watched, they couldn't afford to exploit the workers even if they wanted to (I don't want to imply that they do want to)

How come you say so, my dear friend!

This happens in China, where Labor Unions never speak for their members. And there's no negotiation, only 12 young lives left and tears of their parents.

Yes, Apple doesn't assemble those products, but we highlight Corporate Social Responsibility every time. Should apple know where and how their final products come ,and take some measures? At least, they're Party A in the contract.

If say the journalists take advantage of the name of Apple? Anything wrong? If such a leading company cannot set a sample. will other small companies make better? Big companies of course should be blamed firstly, they enjoyed spotlight, eyeballs, profits, and definitely need bear more .

[tiananmen]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

They get factory supplied housing and meals. And they get pretty good wages in Shenzhen, even higher than in other areas. . People in China have only recently come into money during the last few years and now they want everything right away. They go out and spend (in relation to their incomes) vast amounts. Then they will say "I don't have enough to make a basic living". But that is not poverty.

Yes, rampant housing speculation has pushed housing prices sky high -- in many areas housing prices are higher than in the US or Europe. But the factories have nothing to do with that.

Yes, many people earn $400 a month and buy a $600 phone and spend a few 100 on clothing each month

I highly doubt where you get the statistics, you calculate it in your own brain? How many of them? Are they workers in Foxconn?

People in China have only recently come into money during the last few years and now they want everything right away.

How many do you know they want everything right away? You again make statistics on your own?


And they get pretty good wages in Shenzhen

The lowest wage standard in Shenzhen is rmb 900, $137/month. Most of them can earn $250 if take full load OTwork. Good wages?

They get factory supplied housing and meals

I think you would enjoy these meals, the lunch is rmb 4.5 ( $0.66) per person.

My friend, they're human like you, and me. Please offer at least some sympathy. They have died. They cannot argue with you. but God knows all of these!

[joblack]

Originally Posted by tiananmen

According to the report, as recently the global demand for iPAD and Kindle increases sharply, the Foxconn workers in China would usually take ovetime work up to 14 hrs a day with great pressure. That might be a possible reason why such cases break out collectively. I hope other friends in the forum can perhaps provide more details.[/I]

Don't forget the 'Gestapo methods' for their lost Iphone v4

http://www.thedailyshow.com/collecti...moments/307953

Apple is known to treat people in a bad way. Customers or employees ... it doesn't matter.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by tiananmen

Yes, many people earn $400 a month and buy a $600 phone and spend a few 100 on clothing each month

I highly doubt where you get the statistics, you calculate it in your own brain? How many of them? Are they workers in Foxconn?

People in China have only recently come into money during the last few years and now they want everything right away.

How many do you know they want everything right away? You again make statistics on your own?


And they get pretty good wages in Shenzhen

The lowest wage standard in Shenzhen is rmb 900, $137/month. Most of them can earn $250 if take full load OTwork. Good wages?

They get factory supplied housing and meals

I think you would enjoy these meals, the lunch is rmb 4.5 ( $0.66) per person.

My friend, they're human like you, and me. Please offer at least some sympathy. They have died. They cannot argue with you. but God knows all of these!

You are making my point. The lowest wage in Shenzhen is 900. And workers at Foxconn get 2-3000 when they start. If they work they way up to supervisors they will get 4-5000, and so on. My point exactly, the workers at these factories are priviledged. You can fool people who don't know -- but you won't fool someone who understands the system.

When I came to China for the first time, the wages were less than 100. Yes, Foxconn charge for meals. Just for your info -- I had factory meals, not management meals, many times. Not great, but decent. How many farmers in China that do not work at Foxconn, or those that work at a local factory for 900 would love to have meals like that? The same meal would cost at least RMB 20 outside.

I take pity on those who died. Demonizing the wrong people (and a whole production system) won't bring them back. Neither you nor I know why they killed themselves, you are just assuming it was over working conditions.

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by tiananmen

How come you say so, my dear friend!

This happens in China, where Labor Unions never speak for their members. And there's no negotiation, only 12 young lives left and tears of their parents.

Yes, Apple doesn't assemble those products, but we highlight Corporate Social Responsibility every time. Should apple know where and how their final products come ,and take some measures? At least, they're Party A in the contract.

If say the journalists take advantage of the name of Apple? Anything wrong? If such a leading company cannot set a sample. will other small companies make better? Big companies of course should be blamed firstly, they enjoyed spotlight, eyeballs, profits, and definitely need bear more .

No, they don't have real labor unions. But they have labor law and safety inspectors and lawyers. And a very large percentage of complaints against employers is being decided in favor of the employees. And the workers can leave and work some where else -- every factory is looking for workers, it is very easy. Few workers stay in the same factory for long. They jump from place to place and get a few 100 RMB more every time.

It is exactly the small, locally owned factories. They pay the 900 RMB you mentioned for a 7 day work week, 10 hours a day. The bosses have a friend or family member sitting in the police office or labor oversight bureaus and don't fear the government going after them. The big guys are playing by the rules, the labor inspectors are after them all the time, and their customers (the likes of Apple) are because those customers fear exactly this kind of bad publicity.

There is a lot to be done -- but you are going after the wrong guys, the ones who do good. And you are leaving the bad guys alone.

[Fotoman]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

When all the workers have gone home, the Taiwanese managers will still be in their offices, working. They, voluntarily, put in more than the 60 hours.

How very commendably corporate of them. And pardon me if I don't quite buy the "voluntary" nature of their extra hours...corporate culture being what it is...

China has already gone half way. In another 10-20 years they will have caught up. Do you really think you can just snap your fingers and the laborers in the whole world will work for US wages?

I wouldn't exactly hold up US wages as the gold standard--especially not the wages in the "right to work" union-busting states... try Sweden, France, Canada... but no, they have a long way to go... a decent wage earned in a reasonable work week would do for a start... tiananmen's take on Foxconn wages and how far that stretches seems to be at odds with your take.... who to believe? Tiennenmen and the uninformed "journalist' with their evil anti-corporate agenda or you...hmmm...

...But go to China, learn Chinese and talk the people. Almost all the people are very optimistic, they like where they are at, even compared to western countries.

That's not what I hear from those who left and came to Canada including my daughter-in-law and her family...your portrayal of their mood is very different from what I hear from those who left... perhaps it's just the malcontents who came here?

They have confidence where they are going. They don't need, they don't WANT your pity.

Pity? Anger and contempt for abusive governments and labour practices... not even close to pity. I've been representing workers for nearly 3 decades and pity has never been part of it. Assisting them in correcting the inherent power imbalance that exists in all workplaces--even here in the better western work environments--is never about pity. If you actually have respect for the workers you don't pity them, you just lend them your expertise and assist them as best you can.

I certainly don't speak for all Canadians nor do I hold myself as the definitive interpreter of Candian culture and conditions. I live here but so do millions of others with totally different perspectives. The same applies to you.

In this particular thread we have two of you who are close to the source... I think you know whose opinion I prefer

[mores]

Originally Posted by Tamara

You missed the point. The OP seemed to have this rosy picture of the US where 18 year olds are all living the easy life going to school while mom & dad support them which is not true.

I think the world needs bakers, delivery men, etc. If we didn't have these people, how would you get a coffee and pastry at Starbucks? How would UPS deliver a package without deliverymen? How would roads/houses/cars/etc get built without tradespeople? Besides, not every kid is cut out to be an academic or has interest in being one.

I know. I was being sarcastic, trying to show that I agree with you!

Just for the record

[HansTWN]

Originally Posted by Fotoman

How very commendably corporate of them. And pardon me if I don't quite buy the "voluntary" nature of their extra hours...corporate culture being what it is...


I wouldn't exactly hold up US wages as the gold standard--especially not the wages in the "right to work" union-busting states... try Sweden, France, Canada... but no, they have a long way to go... a decent wage earned in a reasonable work week would do for a start... tiananmen's take on Foxconn wages and how far that stretches seems to be at odds with your take.... who to believe? Tiennenmen and the uninformed "journalist' with their evil anti-corporate agenda or you...hmmm...



That's not what I hear from those who left and came to Canada including my daughter-in-law and her family...your portrayal of their mood is very different from what I hear from those who left... perhaps it's just the malcontents who came here?



Pity? Anger and contempt for abusive governments and labour practices... not even close to pity. I've been representing workers for nearly 3 decades and pity has never been part of it. Assisting them in correcting the inherent power imbalance that exists in all workplaces--even here in the better western work environments--is never about pity. If you actually have respect for the workers you don't pity them, you just lend them your expertise and assist them as best you can.

I certainly don't speak for all Canadians nor do I hold myself as the definitive interpreter of Candian culture and conditions. I live here but so do millions of others with totally different perspectives. The same applies to you.

In this particular thread we have two of you who are close to the source... I think you know whose opinion I prefer

No problem with me. But it is very easy to confirm whose number is closer to reality. The RMB 900 or the RMB 2000+. And do you really think companies like Foxconn only want the absolutely lowest skilled workers? You can't get anyone to sweep your floor for RMB 900 per month anymore.

I am far from describing China as a workers' paradise, lol. I just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of the slavery/exploitation hype. Yes, many European countries have higher wages than the US. But don't forget that they not only pay 50% or more in income tax (often even the average income earners), 19% or more on sales tax, and other things. Besides, you have government set mimimum prices for things like butter, milk, and books. So in the end, people do not have more money in their pockets -- though they do have a lot more time on their hands. And don't forget that even German companies are only sustaining themselves through the EU market. In Asia, in the US they sell only about 8%. Many European companies are just not competitive.

This is a matter of a very different discussion (the chickens are coming home to roost in Europe as we speak), I was just comparing China to the more advanced countries.

As for immigrants, like your in-laws. Of course, they try to have a better life and going to Canada means they will be in a place right now where they would be in China only 15-20 years from now. Besides, I also know 10 Chinese families who went to Germany in the 1980s and they all went back in the last 5 years. None of them regretted it. Of course, let us not talk about personal freedom in China, the environment, the overcrowding, etc, etc. China is no paradise, definitely.

We were talking about working conditions. And while there are a lot of things wrong, things have improved much. And the big factories and their buyers can be credited with improving the lives of 100s of millions of people. Not that they are without fault and always doing well. Industrialization has brought a clear and sustainable path out of poverty for the masses in Asia. Does that mean things couldn't be better? No, but it means we do not have the "desperate masses of helpless slaves" anymore.