What is with these Publishers?

[Barcey]

It actually made me laugh reading the big publishing houses trying to justify the 3 month delay. They are essentially trying to tell people that their business model requires them to gouge their best customers and there is no other way it will work. This might be the reality of how their business model has worked for the last 80 years but it's not really a good idea to tell the paying customers that.

This is a disruptive technology and it's not going to take a couple tweaks to their existing business model. It's a ground up re-evaluation of the the entire value chain and a complete new business model. I understand they don't like that answer, nobody that's been through it does. They have to wake up to the new reality.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

It doesn't matter how many unauthorized copies are floating around--what matters is how to get paid for as many as possible. And they can do that with low prices & user convenience.

Any big-name publisher could try an experiment: pick three dozen authors of equal rankings (however they rank them internally); offer half of those authors' works under the current glitchy ebook system, and the other half under Baen's system. Wait one year and tabulate the results.

It's like publishers begin concerned about how many books are being loaned or resold-and I agree that some *are* concerned about that, but have never really understood why. As you say, better name recognition-no matter what the source-should lead to increased sales. (Well, as long as the recognition is for something good. I suppose that someone who know that he's publishing trash might want to keep tight control over who can read his books. But that would be an anomaly, I hope.)

[NightGeometry]

Originally Posted by rhadin

An important point is being missed here. CJ Cherryh can do this and make enough sales of her ebook through her website because she built a reputation through the traditional publishing process. Imagine no book publishing companies and all authors selling ebooks from their own websites. How would you know who to look for, who to buy? How many times would you need to be burned by buying poorly written drivel before you would stop buying from unknown authors?

The hole in this argument is that there are books published that are, if you'll pardon my brute language, unmitigated crap. I read one recently, it was from a house who normally publish authors I like, this was, as far as I know, a first novel, the subject was good but... it was just crap. I bought it, and read it, and won't read that author again. It was a trade paperback. I recently read an ebook from a first time author, I hated that too, though it fulfilled the same criteria as the pbook I read. The ebook was offered by the author for free, though given the description I'd have probably paid £2 for it, regardless of it being self published. I won't read either author again, but for trying one I am out of pocket £6, for the other... nothing. Guess which model I prefer.

As it happens, that person seems to be getting reasonable feedback on the site I found his book, so while i hated the book, some niche of people seem to like it. I think it was just not well written, I suspect no publisher would have touched it with a barge pole, but the author now has a small readership. I imagine he'll write more, and continue to have a small readership.

If I want to try a new author then I take a risk that they'll actually not be very good and that is the case regardless of whether they are from an established publishing house or not, unfortunately.

There is of course an 'unless' - unless it is an author that is recommended to me. I try new authors 'on spec' (I like the cover, it sounds interesting, et cetera), a few a year. I also try new authors that friends and colleagues recommend. The recommendations from friends do tend to be authors I like. Some of the on spec books I read are rubbish, I don't recommend those to friends and colleagues, the ones I enjoy I do. I truly believe that this is not an unusual system of new authors getting readers, and I really don't think self published ebooks suffer under this systems - or won't, once I convince more of my friends that ebooks are the way forward

(Warning, I think I am going to sound like a snob here). I think the lost business will be to new authors who write books which don't tend to appeal to avid readers. So, 'holiday fiction' huge sellers to people who read one or two books a year, where the author makes a small fortune, for something that (to me), is just pap. I'm not sure how those authors would exist in a mostly word of mouth world, maybe they wouldn't. Now, for me, that is no great loss.

So basically, publishers don't real do anything for me, in an ebook world. Now editors, that is another matter. I wouldn't be surprised to see collectives of editors and publishers working together, maybe even setting up their own epublisher. (At this point I really want to mention ebooks going punk, but I won't).

I also read an interesting post from Charles Stross, who I believe is a member here, on his blog about publishers being very important to authors, due to advances. I don't know the author / publisher side of the bargain, and this I do understand that I only see one side of the story.

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by Barcey

It actually made me laugh reading the big publishing houses trying to justify the 3 month delay. They are essentially trying to tell people that their business model requires them to gouge their best customers and there is no other way it will work. This might be the reality of how their business model has worked for the last 80 years but it's not really a good idea to tell the paying customers that.

I'm a big buyer of hardcover books (I bought more than 100 in 2009) and don't think I have been gouged. I buy hardcover books because I perceive a value in them that I do not perceive in paperbacks nor, currently, in ebooks (I also bought more than 125 ebooks in 2009, so it isn't that I buy one exclusively).

I see no value whatsoever in a Dan Brown or Stephen King book regardless of price or format, but I find great value in Michael Burlingame's Abraham Lincoln: A Life, which was a $125 2-volume hardcover set.

I do not think that people who buy hardcovers regularly believe they are being gouged or they would stop buying them.

[NightGeometry]

As to the delay three months (or even 'till paperback time) approach, I don't have a problem with that at all. If publishers do continue to exist, then I don't see why this is such a terrible thing. I don't like it, much like i didn't like waiting for paperbacks.

I do think it's stupid, as a (possibly significant) % of their willing to pay customers will have already got their digital version by then, but personally my reading schedule would be no different to what it used to be. I used to buy some hardbacks from authors I really liked, but I hate the things for reading, so I was mostly a paperback kind of person.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I'm creating my own blacklist of titles I will never buy. A couple of days ago I too was checking into "Impact" and got ticked off. I contacted Inkmesh and asked about tagging such books so that I make sure I don't buy them.

I have to say that simply blacklisting the entire publisher is easier. *shrugs*

[Connallmac]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Before ebooks your choice was hardcover, paperback, or not at all. I didn't hear a scream by anyone for paperbacks and hardcovers to be released simultaneously. It was expected and accepted that the paperback version would come a year later. And this is still the accepted process.

Now, because you want to read an ebook rather than a pbook you demand that they be released simultaneously. What makes for the sudden change? I don't get your intense dislike for publishers. Seems to me that a 3 month delay for a cheaper version is not unreasonable and is better than the 12 month delay that exists for paperbacks and with which you have been content for decades.

Why aren't you demanding that the hardcover, paperback, and ebook versions be released simultaneously? What is so special about ebooks other than you like them?

I'm proposing that ebooks be the paperback substitute and that the delay be reduced. Considering that there are competing interests involved, I think it is a reasonable solution. OTOH, I have no doubt that publishers would be willing to simultaneously release hardcover and ebook versions at the same high price but I don't hear any clamor for that.

At least I offer a proposal that takes into account the varied interests. Where is your suggestion that balances the competing interests?

The problem with this theory is that it's created for a world that does not exist. As soon as a paper copy is in existence a digital copy is not far behind. It really boils down to a control issue, as in publishers are no longer in control, and they are scared. Publishing houses must either adapt or go away. At the dawn of the 20th century smart carriage manufacturers adapted their business to automobiles, those that didn't went away.

The arrogance of the publishing industry is staggering, here they are offering a product and thinking they can tell us when and where we can buy their product and in what format, especially when you consider that they cannot keep a lid on a digital copy. That didn't work out too well for the music industry did it? Antagonizing your customers is not a business model, just ask the RIAA, I think they would generally agree that this has not played out well for them.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

Antagonizing your customers is not a business model, just ask the RIAA, I think they would generally agree that this has not played out well for them.

Yes, they've now moved onto antagonising the entire tech industry, ISP's and much of the general public.

Hmm.

I am unconvinced (by their pushing of ACTA) they they have learnt anything.

[Connallmac]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Yes, they've now moved onto antagonising the entire tech industry, ISP's and much of the general public.

Hmm.

I am unconvinced (by their pushing of ACTA) they they have learnt anything.

Some folks never do. It would almost be amusing if it weren't so sad!

[DawnFalcon]

Stross needs to write a short story about Bob Howard having to stop an artist summoning a nasty from beyond into the middle of a concert with the RIAA brass in attendence. Talk about a moral dilemma

[random50]

Am I the only one thats confused why the publishing industry isn't chomping at the bit to take advantage of the technology?

No physical product to produce, store and ship.
No losing revenues to resale.
Wide open opportunity to move to subscription based services for academic texts instead of (as currently) repeatedly coming up with irrelevant "new" editions to stop those dastardly, selfish students taking advantage of the second hand market.
Available to the customer on an instant gratification basis (with most e-readers) whenever they're feeling bored.

What's the downside here? Piracy? That ship has already sailed. (Pun, sadly, intended.)

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by rhadin

An important point is being missed here. CJ Cherryh can do this and make enough sales of her ebook through her website because she built a reputation through the traditional publishing process. Imagine no book publishing companies and all authors selling ebooks from their own websites. How would you know who to look for, who to buy? How many times would you need to be burned by buying poorly written drivel before you would stop buying from unknown authors?

When you (and that's the universal you, not soemone in particular) name a popular print author whose works you like and whose ebooks you'd gladly buy from the author's website, you are implicitly acknowledging the work that some publisher did to get that print book out there for you to find and the author to love. How many thousands of self-published authors remain unknown and sell only 50 copies of their work in their lifetime? How many hours each day will you devote to finding author websites and how much money will you risk on unvetted work? And if you complain now about poor formatting, typos, and poor grammar/syntax, how much more will you be willing to tolerate with unvetted authors?

Part of this work that publishers do now - selecting good books to read, establishing and advertising connections between good books already read, and new books just coming out - can be done by the readers. Look at this site:

http://www.literature-map.com/

Then imagine it bigger, with user reviews, like those on Amazon, attached to each book, with connections between books given by readers, each connection voted for or against by thousands of readers.

Editors will still be needed to work with authors, to make a book better. But with a word-of-mouth this big, no official approval of a single person will be neccesssary - good works will eventually float to the top.

[calvin-c]

Originally Posted by NightGeometry

The hole in this argument is that there are books published that are, if you'll pardon my brute language, unmitigated crap. I read one recently, it was from a house who normally publish authors I like, this was, as far as I know, a first novel, the subject was good but... it was just crap. I bought it, and read it, and won't read that author again. It was a trade paperback. I recently read an ebook from a first time author, I hated that too, though it fulfilled the same criteria as the pbook I read. The ebook was offered by the author for free, though given the description I'd have probably paid £2 for it, regardless of it being self published. I won't read either author again, but for trying one I am out of pocket £6, for the other... nothing. Guess which model I prefer.

[Snip]If I want to try a new author then I take a risk that they'll actually not be very good and that is the case regardless of whether they are from an established publishing house or not, unfortunately.

There is of course an 'unless' - unless it is an author that is recommended to me. I try new authors 'on spec' (I like the cover, it sounds interesting, et cetera), a few a year. I also try new authors that friends and colleagues recommend. The recommendations from friends do tend to be authors I like. Some of the on spec books I read are rubbish, I don't recommend those to friends and colleagues, the ones I enjoy I do. I truly believe that this is not an unusual system of new authors getting readers, and I really don't think self published ebooks suffer under this systems - or won't, once I convince more of my friends that ebooks are the way forward

[Snip]So basically, publishers don't real do anything for me, in an ebook world. Now editors, that is another matter. I wouldn't be surprised to see collectives of editors and publishers working together, maybe even setting up their own epublisher. (At this point I really want to mention ebooks going punk, but I won't).

I also read an interesting post from Charles Stross, who I believe is a member here, on his blog about publishers being very important to authors, due to advances. I don't know the author / publisher side of the bargain, and this I do understand that I only see one side of the story.

I think you're overlooking the bookseller/distributor end. Note that I do *not* usually find new authors based on recommendations from others. Few of my friends-and none of my family, AFAIK, share my interests. (Some of my kids even look blank when I talk about reading a book. I do *not* understand where that comes from.)

Anyway, I usually find new authors by searching lists of books for sale and see which (by synopsis/description) might appeal to me. Fairly high success rate that way, but I'm sure as h*ll not going to take the time to search the whole Web to find new websites set up by new authors.

I'm sure you can come up with other ways of finding new authors-maybe people who are willing to search them out & compile the lists-but the current system, with many authors 'feeding' one publisher and many publishers 'feeding' one distributor works-in the sense of putting the books out in front of people. If we're going to replace that, let's make sure we replace it with something that fixes the shortcomings without creating new problems in areas where the current model works very well.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by rhadin

I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that anyone should buy King or Brown or even read free versions of them.

However, I am surprised that you would download a copy from the darknet. I thought you were an author yourself and one who wants reasonable copyright protection for your own work. Am I wrong?

You couldn't be more wrong. I am an author, yes, but my ideas on copyright have changed radically over the last year. Copyright is dead, the Mouse put a bullet through its skull. And I download plenty of stuff from the darknet, I love piracy, I'm pro-piracy. Pirates get it right every time:

Want that rare TV show called Vengeance Unlimited? You're not getting it from the commercial companies, no matter how many petitions you sign for a DVD release. Guess whose going to get you that show?

Pirates.

You just paid for the latest Stephen King dreck on a whim, but you want to read it on your reader? Tough luck, buster, you'll have to wait three months for it, unless....

You guessed it, the pirates have you covered.


Spent £600 on a HD-DVD player and discs only to have them discontinued six months later? Well you're not getting any refund for that, but hey, why not replace all those films with lovely h264 1080p DTS-audio versions? Guess whose doing that and under 10gb for each film?

The pirates.

Or how about that music collection you have in vinyl, tape and CD? What are you going to do, pay ridiculous amounts of money to Jobs and Itunes? Or maybe you can get all those albums again in lossless FLAC, but where, who would go to the trouble of offering that format?

The pirates!

And what about that game you bought, you know, the latest one that cost you £50 and when you get it home you realise you can't install it without asking somebody over the telephone for an authorisation key? And then when you have the key you can't install it on more than one computer at a time. Damn, if there was only some way to get around that...if there was only someone out there who realised that convenience wins every time. Oh wait, you're saying there's somebody out there who takes off that stupid activation, who'll give you the same product, for free, and you can install it on as many computers as you like? Now who would do a thing like that?

Pirates to the rescue!

Okay, so I'm exaggerating, but not by much. I can afford to buy my stuff, I can afford to waste £10 on Stephen King and then download a quick, dirty copy of the book and not feel too bad about it. But I'm 35, I'm old in Internet years. If anybody actually thinks the majority of teens and above even hesitate to download, then they need a wakeup call. The publishers need a wakeup call.

Offer the product in a timely, low-cost and unencumbered manner and you'll keep your customers (at least you'll keep the ones willing to pay). Don't and lose your business. That is the new reality. Ignore it at your peril.

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by daffy4u

I'm creating my own blacklist of titles I will never buy. A couple of days ago I too was checking into "Impact" and got ticked off. I contacted Inkmesh and asked about tagging such books so that I make sure I don't buy them. They are going to try to see what they can come up with.

BTW, Inkmesh has a feedback page. This was my suggestion.

You could do it on Amazon - tag 'refuse to sell to me' or something like that. Or 'blacklist' which is cooler and easier to type.