Universities say no more Kindles till blind students can use it.....

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Well, a blind driver's biggest problem is that they can't order lunch.

I've seen drive up ATMs with braille on them. I assume that is just standard on the machines... but you still gotta wonder how many blind bankers are driving in.

BOb

[khalleron]

I never owned a car until a few years ago, and I would walk to drive-up ATMs if that was all the bank had.

Pedestrians still do exist, even sighted ones.

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Are they also going to boycott paper books until blind people can use those, too?

OMG...that is a classic HarryT comment....and one I agree with 10000%, yet at the same time it has me laughing my arse off because it's so dead-pan & funny.

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't know about books, but all medicines in the UK now seem to have their name (at least I assume it's the name!) on them in braille, on the same box as the name is printed visually.

I am actually not certain how Rx's are handled for the blind here in the US. Were I to guess I imagine each pharmacy has a special printer for vision impaired patients. I see no reason every Rx needs to use those labels, which would explain why I've never noticed them.

As to the topic, something which I never considered in the TTS ability is how useful it could be for a dyslexic person. I left my PharmD degree program and went into Comp-Sci as well as math at the same time instead because, while I was able to spend hours on end working problems, I found reading textbooks very difficult to retain focus and I could never get myself to read, say and microbiology book as if it were a novel. I took to OChem and Bio-Chem well and found them easy subjects. Of late I have come to suspect that was because they are very math like as well as very like designing and writing program code, in the way you learn/study then apply that to solve a problem...but I KNOW I would have finish my PharmD degree had I been able to have the TTS to aid in reading and helping me stay focused. Interesting perspective some 30yrs after the fact. I pretty much never read more that a couple chapters on any topic at a sitting while earning my math degrees because the way to understand is to solve the problem not memorize and read. I learned most everything via lectures and trying understand the theory by problem solving. So not a lot of just reading really.

I say all that because, perhaps, Amazon is actually in favor of such a legal battle...why? Because of how the publishing industry clamped down on TTS almost instantly so Amazon's hands are tied here. Plus in case it has escaped the notice of many folks, anytime a person has a disability, everything geared toward helping them get things done costs 5x-10x what "regular" products might cost, everyone has their hands in BOTH your pockets not just one. So, again, the publishing industry is angry because TTS lets a few people work around the far more expensive targeted solutions as they exist today.

Letting devices all use TTS can actually net probably MORE profit to publishers because they could tag an extra $whateveramount to each device and book sold to spread the liability. I mean if only a dime were added to ALL books sold, not merely text books, to fund letting TTS run free, that should cover audiobook sales they might lose (btw, I doubt TTS will be anything more than a tiny blip on that radar...) as well as INCREASE profits across the board.

The reason I don't see TTS denting audiobook sales is today, audiobooks are amazingly executed as a rule. I buy a lot of books from Audible, and CD/DVD's as well because these things are true performances in many cases. As good as TTS might become it will, in our lifetimes, replace what a quality human(s) reading a book can add.

I like this suit because it might be the wedge in the door to sort of force the hand of publishers. And I imagine in secret, along with Amazon, publishers love the possibilities it might add to their bottom line every quarter. It's right up there with "...it's to save the children..." as a way to increase prices across the board in order to "help" those who have difficulty reading. Want to read TTS on your reader, fine....we want $whatever more per copy sold.

Sorry if this meandered in a different direction, but it was what came to mind when I read the article as well as the balance of comments.

[Frankr]

I was blind to the extent that I could not tell if I was standing 1 foot from a tree or a person, and I never expected the world to adapt to me. It was my handicap, not theirs. I was lucky, medical science caught up to my problem, and a see okay now. That being said, those universities are being ridiculous.
*just my opinion*

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by Frankr

I was blind to the extent that I could not tell if I was standing 1 foot from a tree or a person, and I never expected the world to adapt to me. It was my handicap, not theirs. I was lucky, medical science caught up to my problem, and a see okay now. That being said, those universities are being ridiculous.
*just my opinion*

it's nice to hear the POV of someone who actually has been in the situation! thanks!

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I do find this type of case to be wholly without merit. Yes, it's very unfortunate to be blind, but it's not Amazon's fault that somebody is, and they are surely under no "obligation" to make the Kindle usable by blind people.

There are broad exemptions to allow legally blind people to acquire large print and audiobooks in many countries, you have to allow disabled access to shops and so on. Why is disabled access in electronic devices not a reasonable step?

It's a couple of Universities telling a large corperation what they need to do to be considered for a large-scale rollout of one of their products. Happens all the time. If as has been suggested the use of the device is mandatory for a course, then the Universitys are very much in the wrong in the way they were using them in the first place and it's a necessary change.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by GntlmnBndt

It is called "If You Could See What I Hear."

What a great title!

/JB

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That makes sense. Thanks!

Reminds me of a book I read when I was about 8. Got it through one of those children's book clubs - my parents signed me up for any book club I wanted, which turned out to be several, possibly more than they realized but I was motivated. The book (can't remember the title right now, mumble mumble years later) involved a boy who was blinded & went off to blind school. He & I learned all sorts of things - how to position food on a plate, how to keep clothes & socks sorted & coordinated, and how to tell coins apart. Nickles have smooth edges, quarters have serrated edges, likewise pennies & dimes. And the folding trick.

(Ray Charles - blind American pop singer for the three people who don't know) started off as an intinerant piano player who demanded to be paid in singles. Before The Great Inflation, of course.)

Back on topic, I haven't delved deeply into the thread - not sure who is suing whom - but it seems likely that the blind side will win. Reason being that I can't see (so to speak) any advantage to anyone involved if they lose. If it's blind students vs. university, the prevailing ADA type laws will, well, prevail. If it's universities suing Amazon, Amazon will WANT and NEED to lose, to keep their foothold & fight off both existing computer programs & potential ereader rivals. Actually, there will be no loser. And there will be a nice settlement for everyone.

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Frankr

I was blind to the extent that I could not tell if I was standing 1 foot from a tree or a person, and I never expected the world to adapt to me. It was my handicap, not theirs. I was lucky, medical science caught up to my problem, and a see okay now. That being said, those universities are being ridiculous.
*just my opinion*

Read recently on the web somewhere that Tiger Woods is appearing in some kind of lasik ad. Evidently he was legally blind, something like minus 11 in both eyes. Now he's 20/15.

Ah, here we go: http://gizmodo.com/5403322/racing-on...d-should-we-be

Article is by a woman who races on these carbon fiber legs, having lost her feet at birth. She's talking about "enhancements" & questioning whether Tiger's contact lenses were enhancements - or his lasik.

I was somewhere around minus 8 before I had my lasik. I went for 20/20 in one eye and 20/40 in the other, retaining just enough nearsightedness to avoid any great need for reading glasses. Called monovision, & works fine for me. About half the people who test drive it with contacts get headaches.

But it didn't occur to me to go for 20/15 and take up golf. Or baseball. (Ted Williams, the greatest hitter ever, fighter pilot in WWII & Korea, was 20/15.)

Very interesting article, by the by. Altered my own perspective on the issue.

[Daithi]

MS Windows has features that make it easier for the blind to use their software, but it doesn't read out loud every menu item that a cursor hovers over. No one rejects MS Windows because it doesn't serve the blind well enough. They reject MS Windows becauses it crashes too often, is slow, and prone to getting viruses.

The Kindle DX has TTS which makes it easier for the blind to use, but it is not designed for the blind and won't read out loud every menu item that a cursor hovers over. It seems short-sighted (no pun intended - yeah right) to reject the Kindle for this reason. The crippled (did it again) implementation of PDF, where students can't highlight passages or take notes, is a far more valid reason to reject the Kindle DX.

[DawnFalcon]

Daithi - So it's acceptable for there to be a course which requires the Kindle, and which thus requires frequent aid from a sighted person to the blind person to handle the reading which, in the normal course of events, they could handle themselves on a PC?

[dmaul1114]

Originally Posted by DawnFalcon

Daithi - So it's acceptable for there to be a course which requires the Kindle, and which thus requires frequent aid from a sighted person to the blind person to handle the reading which, in the normal course of events, they could handle themselves on a PC?

Depends. Lots of blind students need full time assistance in the sense of someone to read to them (or provide tapes of the books).

Speaking as a professor (though I've not had a blind student yet--but have had older colleagues who have) I don't see where it's really any different than a professor using a book that's not available in braille or an audio version. Either way someone in the dissability services has to help that student by paying someone to read the book into a tape recorder for the blind student etc.

That said, I'd think requiring a kindle for a course would be stupid, given the crappy highlighting and annotation options, being much harder to flip through when studying etc. so I do agree e-books should be optional alternatives to paper books for schooling. At least until the technology improves.

[DawnFalcon]

I was being quite specific, given that's the actual situation being faced. Many blind people are entirely self-sufficient for reading given a non-DRM'ed source file for the book, the Kindle makes this near-impossible.

[dmaul1114]

Fair enough as that is the current specific example I guess.

But it's also a pipe dream to ever expect many textbook publishers--among the greediest corporations out there--to make DRM'ed ebooks available. They'd rather someone pay the absurd price for a book full of crappy content to be read and record for the blind person vs having a non-DRM'ed e-book that would eventually get passed around to other students.

I think we'll see textbook companies be resistant to e-books period for quite some time because of that reason.

[DawnFalcon]

As I said, there are allready rights to create large print versions of books for the visually impared in the UK, without publisher permission. This can and should be extended to any disability (one of my dyslexic friends reads far more easily with a red-tinted background, for instance), including TTS avaliability.

Indeed, there's a treaty before the WIPO this year to create those exemptions internationally. Publishers are frantically working to block it.

If they think there are not de-DRM'ed versions allready out there, they're dreaming anyway.