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Old 10-20-2009, 07:41 PM   #46
Hellmark
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
Actually the vast majority of "leechers" are people who download a file without in turn uploading that file to a ratio of 1:1 rather than someone who downloads without uploading at all. In most instances they will simply stop uploading once the download is complete, however whilst they are downloading they are also uploading. Generally this is referred to as a hit a run and the person doing it is referred to as a leech.

That is different to not uploading anything at all which in reality extremely few people do.
I am refering to those who just don't upload, period.

Also, why do you sign your posts, rather than using the signature option?
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Old 10-20-2009, 07:47 PM   #47
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I am refering to those who just don't upload, period.
And I'm referring to the approximately 99.9% of people who do upload, at the very least whilst downloading, if not to a full 1:1 ratio.
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Also, why do you sign your posts, rather than using the signature option?
Because I'm old fashioned.

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Old 10-21-2009, 02:19 PM   #48
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Let's face it, a lot of people just want Free Stuff.
Well, yeah.

Just clean all the junk out of your garage/attic/spare room and put it out on the curb/roadside with a "Free Stuff" sign and see how long it lasts.

Of course, if one of them is a Rolls or Jaguar, let me know before you put it out.

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And I don't use the signature feature cuz I can't find where to set a signature (and the avatar selection doesn't seem to work for me, either)

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Old 10-21-2009, 02:33 PM   #49
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Well, yeah.



eGeezer
And I don't use the signature feature cuz I can't find where to set a signature (and the avatar selection doesn't seem to work for me, either)
the signature will work after a few more posts. We had to limit it do to spammers making links to commercial sites. Welcome, by the way.

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Old 10-21-2009, 02:39 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
So to absolve them of all "wrong-doing"(for want of a better term) when it comes to copyright infringement(if such a thing is illegal where they are) because "it shouldn't be up to those that download to verify if something is under copyright, that is the sole responsibility of the uploader" is a bit of a furphy if you ask me.
I never claimed that all p2p users should be absolved of "wrong-doing". I said that downloading is not infringement. If someone on p2p is also uploading, then yes, they are committing infringement. The question was "why do people think downloading is illegal", not "why do people think unauthorized sharing on p2p is illegal".

This issue is a lot bigger than p2p. There are many ways to download on the internet that don't have any association with uploading or sharing. It's the same principle when people bought Orwell eBooks from Amazon a while ago. They weren't committing infringement either, even though Amazon was.

Receiving copyrighted material does not require authorization. Distributing copyrighted material does. The responsibility is on the distributor, it has nothing to do with what technology is involved.
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Old 10-21-2009, 02:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
My point is that the overwhelming majority of people who download by using a p2p program(by far and away the most common form of downloading today) also upload that material at the same time. To suggest otherwise in order to absolve all downloaders of any participation in the act of copyright infringement is simply ridiculous in my opinion.
Your original point implied all p2p users. That's what I objected to. The percentage is irrelevant. IF someone is downloading only, then that is not infringement. Lots of people do not understand the difference.

Many people make the mistake of automatically throwing all p2p activity into the "it must be illegal because it's p2p" category. There are also a lot of sources trying to convince people that "downloading" is illegal. Neither is true.
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:11 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
Receiving copyrighted material does not require authorization. Distributing copyrighted material does. The responsibility is on the distributor, it has nothing to do with what technology is involved.
Copyright laws differ, of course, so you may be right in some jurisdictions-plus IANAL so I'm not totally certain about even the US copyright laws, but I believe the violation is in making an unauthorized copy of the copyrighted work-and it's the downloader who does that. (So does the uploader, of course, except in this case.)

Authorization, of course, can come from either the copyright holder or from 'authorized use' provisions of the copyright law. I'd like to compare it to receiving stolen goods (if you know they're stolen, it's a crime-if you don't, it isn't but you still need to pay restitution in some fashion, usually by returning the goods if possible & by paying for them, again, if not) but I'm not totally certain whether this is the law or just how it's practiced.

Last edited by calvin-c; 10-21-2009 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Added comment
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Old 10-21-2009, 05:25 PM   #53
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i admit i have downloaded a lot of books illegally over p2p networks, purely because its the only real way to get eBooks in Australia. I would be happy to pay for my eBooks, but as usual, Australian publishers, (like the music and movie industry) are so far behind the 8ball its not funny. They have this stupid notion that eBooks are going to kill their business bla bla bla. The only thing that is going to kill their business is inaction! If they wait to long, people that have and will buy eReaders will figure out that p2p can give them what they want, then it will be to late for legitimate stores to open.

Come on Australian publishers, give us our store!
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:45 PM   #54
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Not surprising with music it's easy to find a site and download free music. In that case something like Zune pass would be a good idea for all MP3 stores to use. With ebooks it's the fact that you can only read their book on their device. This limits the choice of the buyer and for some will lead them to illegal download sites. I myself want to be able to buy from all ebook stores but am limited to a few because of this DRM nonsense. They don't seem to want my money so I will save it for something else. If push comes to shove I may be forced to find other ways to get some books. This is why DRM at some point should be dropped.

Last edited by Avarwen; 10-21-2009 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:20 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
I never claimed that all p2p users should be absolved of "wrong-doing". I said that downloading is not infringement. If someone on p2p is also uploading, then yes, they are committing infringement. The question was "why do people think downloading is illegal", not "why do people think unauthorized sharing on p2p is illegal".

This issue is a lot bigger than p2p. There are many ways to download on the internet that don't have any association with uploading or sharing. It's the same principle when people bought Orwell eBooks from Amazon a while ago. They weren't committing infringement either, even though Amazon was.

Receiving copyrighted material does not require authorization. Distributing copyrighted material does. The responsibility is on the distributor, it has nothing to do with what technology is involved.
I've agreed to that before therefore saw no point in reiterating myself on that point. I presumed my previous agreement would be seen to stand until or unless I changed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shaggy
Your original point implied all p2p users. That's what I objected to. The percentage is irrelevant.
My apologies for not mentioning the approximately less than one percent that operate as you suggest. As everyone, yourself included, has posted in generalities in the past, I assumed it was allowed in this instance. I will endeavour to be more specific in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy
IF someone is downloading only, then that is not infringement.
Again, I have already previously agreed to that, both in this thread and others. For future reference you may assume my agreement stands unless I state otherwise at some time in the future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy
Lots of people do not understand the difference.
Very true. Just as "lots of people" do not adjust their p2p programs to download only and not upload.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy
Many people make the mistake of automatically throwing all p2p activity into the "it must be illegal because it's p2p" category. There are also a lot of sources trying to convince people that "downloading" is illegal. Neither is true.
I never said that. I never implied it.

Cheers,
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:28 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by calvin-c View Post
Copyright laws differ, of course, so you may be right in some jurisdictions-plus IANAL so I'm not totally certain about even the US copyright laws, but I believe the violation is in making an unauthorized copy of the copyrighted work-and it's the downloader who does that. (So does the uploader, of course, except in this case.)
Interesting point.

If one downloads a file that is under copyright and they do not have authorisation to make copies of that work they are in effect making an "unauthorised copy" of that file on their computer.

I don't pretend to know the technicalities of the law exactly though and it was my understanding(as I've previously stated!) that it is the uploaders responsibility to ensure they have they relevant authoristion for making copies.

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Old 10-22-2009, 09:41 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
Interesting point.

If one downloads a file that is under copyright and they do not have authorisation to make copies of that work they are in effect making an "unauthorised copy" of that file on their computer.
No. They aren't.

Quote:
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I don't pretend to know the technicalities of the law exactly though and it was my understanding(as I've previously stated!) that it is the uploaders responsibility to ensure they have they relevant authoristion for making copies.
Correct.

Laws made like you theorize in your first paragraph would mean that if I posted one of the Harry Potter books in plaintext (or even just a few chapters thereof) into a thread, all the people that viewed it (including the moderator who eventually removes it) would be guilty of copyright infringement and liable to full prosecution and penalties. Even if they only realized it was copyrighted after the page fully loaded, no account of my titling the post "Hot deal on the PRS-600". (Viewing a webpage does COPY data from the internet onto your computer, you know!)

- Ahi
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:33 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ahi View Post
No. They aren't.



Correct.

Laws made like you theorize in your first paragraph would mean that if I posted one of the Harry Potter books in plaintext (or even just a few chapters thereof) into a thread, all the people that viewed it (including the moderator who eventually removes it) would be guilty of copyright infringement and liable to full prosecution and penalties. Even if they only realized it was copyrighted after the page fully loaded, no account of my titling the post "Hot deal on the PRS-600". (Viewing a webpage does COPY data from the internet onto your computer, you know!)

- Ahi
The specific scenario you posted would be covered under fair use for the downloaders. The moderator certainly has a fair use right to review uploaded files to see if they violate copyright or not. Likewise if downloaders have reason to believe that they are not actually downloading copyrighted material (i.e. because of a misleading topic heading) they have a fair use right to review the material downloaded.

On the flip side, if you posted it clearly and unambiguously as what it was, then the downloaders very likely are violating copyright law.

Lets look at it this way. If person A has a legally purchased CD (I am using something where the medium and the media are tied together to simplify things) and lends it to person B, then everything is fine. Person B has a legal right to listen to that CD. However, lets say that person B asks person A to make a copy of the CD for him and person A complies. Now both person B and person A have violated copyright law; person A actually has made the copy, but person B caused the copy to be made. Now lets assume that the original CD was an illegal copy. B is still guilty of violating copyright because he caused an additional illegal copy to be made.

Now on the flip side, if person A lead person B to believe that the CD contained music owned by person A, then requesting a copy does not make B guilty of violating copyright because B believed it was legal to make that copy.

Downloading is the same thing. Person B is taking a copyrighted file and making a copy of that file which B did not pay for and which otherwise does not fit under fair use. We are not talking about making copies that person B did not realize violated copyright.

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Old 10-22-2009, 01:34 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by calvin-c View Post
I believe the violation is in making an unauthorized copy of the copyrighted work-and it's the downloader who does that.
You are correct that the violation is in making/distributing an unauthorized copy, but the downloader does not do that.

The one thing that some people have tried to argue is that downloaders are committing contributory copyright infringement (IE an indirect infringement). However, that has never been tried successfully in court as far as I know, and the law was not written with the intent of being applied to somebody downloading material.
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Old 10-22-2009, 01:45 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by PKFFW View Post
If one downloads a file that is under copyright and they do not have authorisation to make copies of that work they are in effect making an "unauthorised copy" of that file on their computer.
No they aren't.

The downloader requests a copy, the uploader gives it to them. The downloader never has direct access to the original file, and cannot make a copy themselves.

Forget about the technology involved, it doesn't matter. Think about if you walk into a book store and ask the clerk for a book behind the counter. He pulls it off the shelf, makes a photocopy of it, and gives you the photocopy. The original book remained in his possession the entire time. Who committed infringement?
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