Apple... Potential Kindle Killer?

[kazbates]

It is very disheartening that a simple question as to whether an ebook reader developed and marketed by Apple would drastically cut into Kindle sales, can deteriorate into an Apple bashing session.

I was never crazy about the Apple laptops we were given to use by my school system. I preferred the PC that I was already using. However, I would not say that one device was worse than the other in regards to performance. They both met their stated specifications and performed the tasks for which they were created. We tend to like that which with we are familiar, so I was more comfortable with my PC.

I have devices of all makes and models. I have both a Toshiba and a HP laptop. I have a Sony reading device and a EBW1150. I have the original HP IPAQ mp3 player and an Apple IPOD. All of these devices work very well and each has it's own unique characteristics that suited the needs I had when I purchased them. Limiting myself to one brand over another seems. . .well, limiting.

As to the original question, I don't think it would "kill" the Kindle. As I obliquely referenced with the above narrative, there is room for a variety of devices. The actual test will be how well the ebooks are marketed. Apple has done an amazing job with their music downloads, yet Kindle has also been extremely successful with their ebook division.

[Sonist]

There are rumors that Apple may use LG's anti-smudge OLED displays in its tablet (and in the new iPhone.)

While the current cost of OLED displays makes many doubt these rumors, if true, OLED displays would be a much tougher competition for E-Ink than LCDs, and thus for a device such as the Kindle DX.

OLEDs do not require backlighting, thus are apparently easier on the eyes, and allow for longer battery life.

Speaking of battery life, the CNET review above included a comparison chart of real world battery performance for tested laptops by different manufacturers. Here it is, for those who apparently missed it:

______________________

Video playback battery drain test (in minutes)
(Longer bars [higher numbers] indicate better performance)

Apple MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo 17 inch - 2.66GHz (Nvidia GeForce 9600M GT) - 254
Apple MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo 15.4 inch - 2.53GHz (Nvidia GeForce 9600M GT) - 196
Gateway P-7801u - 189
Sony Vaio AW170Y/Q - 117
Dell Studio XPS 16 - 103

____________________

It is also worth noting, that the Apple laptop does not sacrifice performance for battery life, since in the performance comparison tests included in the same review, Apple is either best, or second best.

[Gideon]

It's how this conversation always goes. Someone brings up Apple and people loose their cool. Just the way people are... they have to validate their own choices by pretending their is a virtue in their decision and deriding that of others.

When most the time it just happens to be what works for them, or whatever strange personal preferences came together to result in that choice.

Compare: sports teams, music, tv shows, books, etc.

[dmaul1114]

Yep, it's just the nature of the internet.

People's own opinions and choices rule all, and any differing one's have to be derided.

But of course, people aren't very comfortable with their own choices/opinions apparently or they wouldn't need to deride those of others.

I've never owned an Apple product, but I have nothing against the company and would consider a tablet device from them if it fit my needs and budget. Those two reasons are why I've yet to buy an Apple product. They simply haven't fit my needs or been within my budget.

I work in academia, so it's hard to switch to Apple as it adds the hassle of having to get Apple versions of stats software etc., and worry about converting files to send to my colleagues that I'm collaborating with on research who all have PCs. iPod I've always found to cost more and do less (namely lacking built in FM tuning which I use a lot) compared to other players like the Creative Vision M I currently use. Though the iPod touch adds a lot of features (but still lacks FM built in).

But if they put a tablet device out that worked well for internet, videos and reading/annotating PDFs with stylus I'd be pretty interested. Though I'd probably give it a year or two to see what competitors could put out and let the first generation kinks be worked out.

Brand loyalty or disloyalty is for suckers. It's best to have neither and just evaluate what works best for you at the time for each product you purchase.

[Gideon]

I will say though... if Apple does this and makes it easy for developers to turn their iPhone/iPod touch apps into apps for this thing.... (including stanza, kindle, etc)

It'd just be incredible. You'd have an instant library of great software. I just hope to god whatever they do is more open than the App store - I don't generally get in a tizzie about such things, but for something like a tablet I really expect more control over the device.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by Gideon

I will say though... if Apple does this and makes it easy for developers to turn their iPhone/iPod touch apps into apps for this thing.... (including stanza, kindle, etc)

It'd just be incredible. You'd have an instant library of great software. I just hope to god whatever they do is more open than the App store - I don't generally get in a tizzie about such things, but for something like a tablet I really expect more control over the device.

Of course, there are already tablets out there running XP and linux.



Too bad there is no software for that.

[Sonist]

Originally Posted by Phogg

Of course, there are already tablets out there running XP and linux.
...

Not out for sale yet.

Plus, I believe we are talking about a different animal here: touch, more elegant/user friendly OS, and hopefully different display.

[Gideon]

Yeah... amen. I've owned a tablet PC. It's a nightmare. Okay, it's not a nightmare - it is very cool in a lot of ways. But here's the problem, and this is what made the iPhone revolutionary: linux and windows on tablets still act like you're using a mouse! The interface can't be the same because you don't use it the same. Using a tablet is a giant pain in the butt when it comes to doing just about anything (except for reading comic books and pdfs!) because it hasn't been designed. It's just been ported over from a desktop.

So yes.. if Apple releases something, it's assumed they actually designed the software around that sort of interface. I imagine that particular hurdle is why we haven't seen one yet, but why the iPhone opens the door (if you've used a Treo or Windows Mobile device it's clear they haven't thought NEARLY hard enough about the UI).

But I doubt such a device will ever be what you write documents on. It's going to be an ancillary device, not a primary.

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Kamm:

I'll see your "10+ years real world professional experience of mine with all things Apple" and raise you a decade. Plus a Ph.D. (while we're tossing around semi-relevant credentials).

Can I get a short pause here, to laugh a good one?

Thanks.

Waving your fairly irrelevant PhD - the implication it could be even remotely relevant in a discussion about IT and everyday matter like battery life of Apple laptops clearly shows complete lack of knowledge - I have to admit I'm more than unimpressed by the level of US education below post-grad level (I went to university in Europe) so you might excuse me if I had to have a good laugh here...

My personal experience of "IT guys" is that most of them (but not all, by any means) "know" a lot of stuff about the Mac -- both hardware and software -- that just aren't so.

I guess it's time to define what this "IT guy" means here - especially for fairly funny supposed "PhD" holders.

FYI I'm not an "IT guy" and I really don't see how your largely negative empirical evidence of "IT guys' cluelessness" has any relevance in this topic... care to elaborate?

Meanwhile, the computing facilities guys at my university tell me

Ahh, I see - so you're told...

I guess the relevance of your (supposed) PhD is pretty much zero in this field you're trying to speak about with some percieved voice of authority - am I right your field is unrelated...?

that they'd be just as happy if all their users got Macs instead of PCs. They find that they get 10x fewer support issues per user from the Mac folks than from the PC folks. (And about 4x fewer from the various Linux folks than from the PC folks.) Of course, we're not exactly the most usual set of users (Carnegie Mellon University's School of Computer Science -- in a 3-way tie for top program in the world) so your mileage may vary. But my experience, my extended family's experience, and the local "IT guys" experience seems to be quite different from yours.

Ahh I see - so on one hand you claim you are "not exactly the most usual set of users" but at the same time "they" (you gotta love these invisible voices of upper authority!) find that they get 10x fewer support issues per user from the Mac folks than from the PC folks. (And about 4x fewer from the various Linux folks than from the PC folks.)
Let's forget the hilarious notion of this whole claim - I bet these numbers you just pulled out of your bottom part gut let's pretend for a sec they are true.... just what are they saying?
That Mac folks simply give up...? Or that they don't use any advanced service?
Or perhaps that most of them - especially in a univ environment - BSD geeks...?

Your laims lack even the most basic background details ergo these - suspiciously standard Mac-fan-styled - talking points are meaningless on their own.

Anyone who works with even not-so-complex networks knows pretty well at this point that you hav no argument here - what's your network setup? What services you offer, what OSes you, errr "they" talking about when "they" claim thes enumbers? Wha's the size and quality of your sampling populus?

So, with all due respect, perhaps you should "get a clue."

Xenophon

I believe I proved beyond any doubt that you, Sir, have little right to talk to anyone about "having a clue" - si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses, frater.

PS: nota bene it was a discussion about battery life, nothing else...

[Nate the great]

@kamm, @xenophon

Could we have some civil behavior, please? Thank you.

-moderator

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Gideon

It's how this conversation always goes. Someone brings up Apple and people loose their cool. Just the way people are... they have to validate their own choices by pretending their is a virtue in their decision and deriding that of others.

When most the time it just happens to be what works for them, or whatever strange personal preferences came together to result in that choice.

Compare: sports teams, music, tv shows, books, etc.

Aww, stop with the empty cliches, please. I *OWN* a Macbook, always had a Mac, there's nothing worng with Mac.

However it is dead wrong to act like if Apple is some sort of inventor - they are not and they never were.

Apple is a highly competent industrial design and software company with a very smart marketing team who built an entire brand on fairly clueless but snobbish users paying double price for already available solutions. (no, those illustrators and musicians alone would never have kept Apple alive.)
Then they went on attacking the market 'en masse' with a simple music player - nothing revolutionary again, mind you - which pretty much single-handedly popularized the brand.
They were smart enough to back up this wave with the release of their revamped software, later hardware platforms so it's a very impressive operation with a lot of competent, good products.

However the notion that 'uhhh, Apple will make a Kindle-killer" etc is pathetic - anyone even slightly familiar with Apple's track record knows that 1st gen is usually buggy, overpriced, full of unfinished or misswing features. Like MIcrosoft's betas but this time for money.
Okay, the ovelry convoluted-complicated, buggy-as-hell, maddenly stupidly deisgned OSes have an even worse yet more expensive history...

Anyway, my point is this Apple-cult really pisses me off, every time I see it.

[dmaul1114]

I've never been an apple fan, and also don't like they're fanboys (again, brand loyalty is for suckers) but I wouldn't dismiss an eventual tablet at all.

The iPhone/iPod touch is the first of their devices I've been truly impressed with (though I don't own either due to price-and not wanting a smart phone). The touch screen interface works much better than any touch device I've used--palm pilot, my LG Voyager phone, Nintendo DS, Tablet PCs etc.

It's just super intuitive. Some I'm very stoked to see what they could to with some kind of tablet device. I'd love to have something like that. A larger version of the iPhone with more features (sans talking), a bigger screen etc. would be great for carrying around to surf the net, watch movies/tv shows, uses as a planner (in place of my old palm pilot), take notes in meetings, read and mark up PDFs of scholarly journals, and also do some reading on since I'd carry something like that around while my Kindle usually stays on the night stand unless I'm going out of town.

Again, I don't think such a device would kill the Kindle as bookworms (especially the older ones who seem to be buying up ereaders) will want a simple device and the e-ink screen for long reading sessions. But such a device could really sell well if done right, and really expand the e-book market by getting a device with integrated e-book functions built in into the hands of lot of people who would never even think of buying a dedicated reader.

Now, as you say the first generation or two are likely to be a bit buggy, but probably not too bad. Both the first and second gen iPhones were pretty solid devices with only minor issues IMO.

The main thing will be the screen techonology (prices dropping on OLED displays) and battery life improving so such a device could stand up to 8-10 hours or so of use a day and be charged at night. Though in reality, since it's not a phone it could probably get buy on a lot less for most people since it doesn't need to be on and carried around all the time like the iPhone.

[kamm]

Originally Posted by Sonist

Not out for sale yet.

I must be dreqaming them, I'm typing on one - since last Fall, to be precise..

Tablets were available in the early 2000s already but back then they (CompUSA, Circuit City, Best Buy etc) tried to sell them as $2,000+ "business" tools... never took off.

BTW you can get a clue byt checking the link I posted earlier - UMPC portal: http://www.umpcportal.com/products/

CHange the number of items to "all" and lo and behold, you get 100+ umpc, tablet, netbook or other mobile device listed, all running some sort of flavor of linux, Windows or Symbian (but no OS X whatsoever.

Plus, I believe we are talking about a different animal here: touch, more elegant/user friendly OS, and hopefully different display.

Yeah, I got all these - running a surprisingly fast Win 7, often using on-screen keyboard, full LED screen.

Do you want to know the price...? It was well under $1k so most likely more advanced yet cheaper than anything Apple can offer.

PS: did I mention I managed to install OS X on it...?

[kamm]

Originally Posted by dmaul1114

I've never been an apple fan, and also don't like they're fanboys (again, brand loyalty is for suckers) but I wouldn't dismiss an eventual tablet at all.

The iPhone/iPod touch is the first of their devices I've been truly impressed with (though I don't own either due to price-and not wanting a smart phone). The touch screen interface works much better than any touch device I've used--palm pilot, my LG Voyager phone, Nintendo DS, Tablet PCs etc.

It's just super intuitive. Some I'm very stoked to see what they could to with some kind of tablet device. I'd love to have something like that. A larger version of the iPhone with more features (sans talking), a bigger screen etc. would be great for carrying around to surf the net, watch movies/tv shows, uses as a planner (in place of my old palm pilot), take notes in meetings, read and mark up PDFs of scholarly journals, and also do some reading on since I'd carry something like that around while my Kindle usually stays on the night stand unless I'm going out of town.

Again, I don't think such a device would kill the Kindle as bookworms (especially the older ones who seem to be buying up ereaders) will want a simple device and the e-ink screen for long reading sessions. But such a device could really sell well if done right, and really expand the e-book market by getting a device with integrated e-book functions built in into the hands of lot of people who would never even think of buying a dedicated reader.

Now, as you say the first generation or two are likely to be a bit buggy, but probably not too bad. Both the first and second gen iPhones were pretty solid devices with only minor issues IMO.

The main thing will be the screen techonology (prices dropping on OLED displays) and battery life improving so such a device could stand up to 8-10 hours or so of use a day and be charged at night. Though in reality, since it's not a phone it could probably get buy on a lot less for most people since it doesn't need to be on and carried around all the time like the iPhone.

I could go on for hours about the crippled and pathetic state of the US cellphone market and wireless providers and their breathtaking market abuse for decades now but it's too late - if you were interested seeing advanced phone years before iPhone all you had to do is to go to Europe and Asia - in Japan an iPhone is actually embarrasing to have, yes (i'm not kidding, it's true.)

iPhone's truly a one-trick pony and that's responsiveness - but in return you lost multitasking, it's a true single-tasking device, unlike any other smartphone out there.

Also even 2nd gen 3G has a lot of laughably pathetic shortcomings (no c/p? battery? MMS? videophone? email client? etc etc) so don't hold your breath about their tablet just yet...

Regardless of all its issues Apple did a good job showing others that it IS the first and foremost user experience, the responsiveness and everything comes after.
Everything else was simply stolen from others including the mighty app store idea (Palm had an appstore from the 90s, Handango started selling WinMo apps from 2000 IIRC.)

[dmaul1114]

That may be all true, but all that matters to us non-techies is having a product that works well and is simple and easy to use.

The techies like you can find all kinds of faults with products, but those of us who don't give a flying f*** about technology and it's in and outs and just want a product we can pick up and use are very well served by simple to use devices such as the Kindle or the iPhone.

And I believe an eventual tablet by Apple would do the same thing. Be very intuitive and idiot proof and a solid device for people who just want something to surf the net, watch movies, have a planner, read some books etc.

It may no meet the standards of power users and techies, but who cares? That's a small niche and Apple couldn't care less about them. The money is in the mainstream with the Joe Six Packs who just expect to buy stuff and do the basic advertised functions with ease.

I could care less if Apple or any other company is an innovator or just steals other ideas. I care that a company puts out a device that does what I need it to do and is easy as hell to use. Again, brand loyalty is for suckers, so I could careless if it's innovative or not as long as it works the way I think it should.