More disappointment with Waterstones - Page 4

PieOPah · 04-16-2009, 01:24 PM

I think it is fantastic that you are managing to get some better feedback than myself and others have had so far.

The most annoying comment in the reply though is that the price is set by the publisher.

I have already contacted a publisher regarding this matter and they have told me

Quote:

Originally Posted by randomhouse

Thank you for your email. Our eBooks are sold to a digital wholesaler at a discounted level from the list price. The Random House policy is to price an ebook at the same ex VAT price as the physical edition. The wholesaler then sells to the retail websites, and the prices to consumers are set by the retailer

Basically they shouldn't be using the publisher as an excuse for poor prices. As the publisher states THE PRICES TO CONSUMERS ARE SET BY THE RETAILER...

Tracey · 04-17-2009, 08:29 AM

Your research with the publishers really confirms what i suspected; there is a wholesale price and individual resellers choose their own price to retail items at. It would have been unusual if this commodity was different to most others! I did quote some examples in my reply to Waterstones and also suggested that other retailers may be negotiaiting more advantageous terms in their discussions with manufacturers and publishers.

I am still awaiting a reply to that mail but, like you, i am pleased that our collective efforts seem to have resulted in actual questions being responded to now. Albeit they may not contain the answers we would prefer!

Tracey · 04-25-2009, 05:29 AM

Just an update to advise that i have not heard anything back from Waterstones since the lady at their head office advised my enquiry had been forwarded to their product team on Thursday of last week.

I have mailed her this morning to ask that she prompt her colleagues to do so.

In the meantime, i guess like many others, i have had another promotional email from them offering discounts but i am sure i don't need to tell you all what products are excluded!

Tracey · 05-01-2009, 04:54 PM

Hi everyone, I have received a reply from Waterstones today so wanted to update you.
Firstly, here is the latest of the mails that i sent them -

"I quite understand that there has to be an element of supply and demand associated with eBook pricing and that the manufacturers and publishers are influential in determining prices. However, i am sure that you can appreciate that is does cause significant frustration to find that eBooks are significantly cheaper from other sellers, such as WH Smith, who do not have a partnership with Sony.

Just to give you an example, i have looked at a couple of books on your website and Carra: My Autobiography by Jamie Carragher is £11.39 in hardback and £17.47 in eBook format. The eBook format is marked as having 20% off but still is significantly more expensive. Barack Obama's Dreams of my Father is priced at £5.39 in paperback and £7.18 in eBook format. Again, the eBook is marked at a 20% reduction but both the hardback and paperback prices i have quoted would be subject to an additional discount when you mail out promotional offers. Just for further information, the Sony PRS-505 is currently priced at £224 on your website but is available from WH Smith for £195. Perhaps a logical conclusion is that other resellers are extracting more advantageous terms from their negotiations with publishers?

Thanks for the positive feedback regarding the templates used by your Customer Service Team; i can assure you that the hard work to replace these will result in a more positive perception from those that make enquiries to the Team.

It is also good to hear that the search facility is being improved although the advanced search option is still very clunky and not anything like as slick as it is on other sites.

I mean no offence at all but i still feel that Waterstones approach will do nothing but continue to alienate potential purchasers of eBooks. I agree that it is a developing technology, and will expand as time goes by, but this expansion is already happening; many other retailers are seizing the moment now and enjoying increased sales because of this. Perhaps i can best summarise the opportunity by referring to Apple and iTunes - people who are in the market place to buy technology gadgets want to buy the products to use upon them and they will seek other options if they are more competitive.

I have already posted onto MobileRead that i have mailed yourselves and received initial positive feedback but i am certain that the disappointment and cynicism regarding Waterstones approach will remain once i update it with your reply. This is of great regret to me because i really would prefer to spend my money with you but, particularly in the current climate, i expect value for money and i am not receiving it from Waterstones.

I wish you well with future developments in the eBook marketplace and hope that the current pricing policy does not mean that you miss an opportunity to capture the market that should be yours, as Sony's preferred partner, in the UK.

Finally, i leave you with a few statistics about my own purchasing habits. I usually holiday three times a year and, on average, would purchase £100 or so worth of books per holiday. You can imagine the impact on my luggage allowance which is why i bought the Sony eReader when it was launched here. If you take this value, together with the £200 or so i have spent with Sony in the USA in the last six months, this gives you some indication of the expenditure that i no longer make with Waterstones. I have no pleasure in relaying this information; i would much prefer to continue to do spend it with you."

Here is the reply i received today from the person who is the Development Buyer – eBooks and Internet, for Waterstones -

"I'm the eBooks Buyer for Waterstones.com, and started a few months ago.
I've read over your e-mail and am familiar with the discussion boards at mobileread, though I do not currently post there.

My efforts are entirely focussed on improving our eBooks offering, as the market develops we see no reason why eBooks shouldn't be marketed and discounted just like their physical counterparts though we are unable to do so at present and so offer the blanket 20% discount on all eBooks. I am working with publishers to see what we can do to improve our offering and am focussed on
a) improving range with new titles added every week
b) usability that we will address with changes to the site this year
c) value by finding ways of mirroring our approach from other formats on eBooks.

I hope that as we develop our offering in the coming months we are able to regain your custom.
Please do feel free to come back to me with any further points you wish to raise."

Well, there we have it. I will acknowledge the reply but i just feel that they are missing the point that the market is already developed and competitive from other sources. Additionally, PieOPah has already posted Random House's reply regarding the prices being set by the retailer. I guess we must just wait and see what happens over the coming months.

PieOPah · 05-01-2009, 05:31 PM

It is a shame that the answers while sounding as positive as possible are still very political - they will give as much information as possible without actually answering any of the questions.

I applaud your efforts for continually striving to get a fairer and better deal from Waterstones - personally I gave up...

The one positive note that I did get from the reply was that the 'eBook Buyer' reads the forum (how much I have no idea - would be beneficial if he posted!)

Still looking forward to the day that eBooks are fairly priced in the UK...

Tracey · 05-01-2009, 06:09 PM

Thanks for the compliment PieOPah. Like you, i am pleased that we have had more than the standard Customer Service replies this time but it is disappointing that they won't budge. I truly believe their sales would increase if they reduced prices, even if just for a few weeks as a trial, and allowed us to vote with our wallets!

I have replied to the buyer, who is called Alex, to thank him/her for the reply and asked that they do use this forum to gauge opinion and pointed out that this particular topic has been read in excess of 1900 times.
I completely share your views about hoping to have competitive products available in the UK soon.

I would welcome your opinion as to whether i should now approach Sony and express our collective disappointment to them? I know they are a big corporate company but they did commit us to Waterstones as the UK provider and should, in my opinion, want us to have competitive media available.

What does anyone else think please?

Xenophon · 05-01-2009, 08:08 PM

Perhaps you should remind them of Baen's success with reasonably-priced DRM-free ebooks. Ebooks appear to be bringing in something between 10% and 20% of their total gross sales -- and a moderately higher percentage of their profits -- even as they pay their authors better royalties for electronic sales than for paper. All this while they've doubled the size of the company, and seen their total sales increase through a period when all the rest of publishing is shrinking!

That experience really ought to open some eyes at any publishing house! Sadly, the normal response is more along the lines of "sure, it works for them. But we're different, because [we have best-selling authors/they're just a 'genre' publisher/or whatever]". I think other publishers would do better to say "we should try it too!" -- but I'm sure that those publishing industry insiders know better. After all, they're doing so much better than Baen... right?

More to the point -- there is absolutely no excuse for eBook costing more than the least-expensive new dead-tree edition of the same book. This should never happen!

Xenophon

NuclearWinter · 05-04-2009, 12:06 PM

I recommend using the Sony store with Entropay, rather than relying on gift cards.

You just go to www.entropay.com and create a virtual Visa card and transfer money to it from your real card or direct from your bank account, similar to Paypal. Then create an account on the Sony store using a US address (any should work as long as the zip code is valid) and then when you add a credit card for payment you just enter the details of your virtual card from Entropay.

Quick, easy and superior to Waterstones until they get their act together and greatly increase the amount of titles they have available. Like most of you I'd be very happy to order from a British store if they actually had the books I'm interested in.

Lycoming · 05-04-2009, 03:15 PM

Nukewinter, do you have the UK Adobe Digital Editions and the US ADE on the same PC or is it necessary to erase the UK ADE prior to setting up the US account?

What's Barak's zip code?

NuclearWinter · 05-04-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lycoming

Nukewinter, do you have the UK Adobe Digital Editions and the US ADE on the same PC or is it necessary to erase the UK ADE prior to setting up the US account?

What's Barak's zip code?

I've not yet installed the UK version to try it, but from what I've heard it sounds like you won't be able to have both running simultaneously on the same machine unfortunately. I figure that if/when Waterstones has something I want then I'll put the UK version on my laptop, it's a bit of a pain though for those who are attempting to support the UK store.

And 20500 is the zip code for the White House

Lycoming · 05-04-2009, 04:04 PM

Thanks for the advice.

NuclearWinter · 05-04-2009, 04:27 PM

Just noticed that you were talking about Adobe Digital Editions, is that what you meant? It's the Sony eBook Library software that you need for the Sony and Waterstones stores and which has the region restrictions.

As far as I know there isn't a seperate UK or US specific edition of the ADE software, which is only needed for DRM'd EPUB and PDF files.

Curly · 05-05-2009, 01:51 AM

You do not need to load or use the UK Sony software to buy from Waterstones or WH Smith and can purchase books directly from the website and download. The software just opens the regular webpage. You will need Adobe Digital Editions.

NuclearWinter · 05-05-2009, 06:13 AM

Thanks, that's good to hear. In that case then you can order from both the US Sony store and Waterstones on the same machine.

khalleron · 05-05-2009, 01:31 PM

Why not just buy from WHSMith? I'm in the US, but I just bought a series there that's not available in the US (irony, that) for less than the paperback prices on Amazon for the same books (and the 1st book isn't even available in pbook over here).

If WHS has better pricing, better selection, better service, why bother with Waterstone's at all?

Unless you're using PRS-500s. Then I can see the problem.

Oh, and the complete White House address is

1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington, DC 20500

05-01-2009, 08:08 PM	#52
Xenophon curmudgeon Posts: 1,487 Karma: 5748190 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Redwood City, CA USA Device: Kobo Aura HD, (ex)nook, (ex)PRS-700, (ex)PRS-500	Perhaps you should remind them of Baen's success with reasonably-priced DRM-free ebooks. Ebooks appear to be bringing in something between 10% and 20% of their total gross sales -- and a moderately higher percentage of their profits -- even as they pay their authors better royalties for electronic sales than for paper. All this while they've doubled the size of the company, and seen their total sales increase through a period when all the rest of publishing is shrinking! That experience really ought to open some eyes at any publishing house! Sadly, the normal response is more along the lines of "sure, it works for them. But we're different, because [we have best-selling authors/they're just a 'genre' publisher/or whatever]". I think other publishers would do better to say "we should try it too!" -- but I'm sure that those publishing industry insiders know better. After all, they're doing so much better than Baen... right? More to the point -- there is absolutely no excuse for eBook costing more than the least-expensive new dead-tree edition of the same book. This should never happen! Xenophon Last edited by Xenophon; 05-01-2009 at 08:10 PM. Reason: Added comparison between Dead-tree and eBook prices.

05-04-2009, 12:06 PM	#53
NuclearWinter Enthusiast Posts: 28 Karma: 10 Join Date: May 2009 Device: Sony PRS-505, Kindle PW2, iPad Mini, Nexus 6	I recommend using the Sony store with Entropay, rather than relying on gift cards. You just go to www.entropay.com and create a virtual Visa card and transfer money to it from your real card or direct from your bank account, similar to Paypal. Then create an account on the Sony store using a US address (any should work as long as the zip code is valid) and then when you add a credit card for payment you just enter the details of your virtual card from Entropay. Quick, easy and superior to Waterstones until they get their act together and greatly increase the amount of titles they have available. Like most of you I'd be very happy to order from a British store if they actually had the books I'm interested in. Last edited by NuclearWinter; 05-04-2009 at 12:11 PM.

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04-17-2009, 08:29 AM	#47
Tracey Connoisseur Posts: 67 Karma: 68 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Wilburton, Ely Device: Sony PRS-505	Your research with the publishers really confirms what i suspected; there is a wholesale price and individual resellers choose their own price to retail items at. It would have been unusual if this commodity was different to most others! I did quote some examples in my reply to Waterstones and also suggested that other retailers may be negotiaiting more advantageous terms in their discussions with manufacturers and publishers. I am still awaiting a reply to that mail but, like you, i am pleased that our collective efforts seem to have resulted in actual questions being responded to now. Albeit they may not contain the answers we would prefer!

04-25-2009, 05:29 AM	#48
Tracey Connoisseur Posts: 67 Karma: 68 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Wilburton, Ely Device: Sony PRS-505	Just an update to advise that i have not heard anything back from Waterstones since the lady at their head office advised my enquiry had been forwarded to their product team on Thursday of last week. I have mailed her this morning to ask that she prompt her colleagues to do so. In the meantime, i guess like many others, i have had another promotional email from them offering discounts but i am sure i don't need to tell you all what products are excluded!

05-01-2009, 04:54 PM	#49
Tracey Connoisseur Posts: 67 Karma: 68 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Wilburton, Ely Device: Sony PRS-505	Hi everyone, I have received a reply from Waterstones today so wanted to update you. Firstly, here is the latest of the mails that i sent them - "I quite understand that there has to be an element of supply and demand associated with eBook pricing and that the manufacturers and publishers are influential in determining prices. However, i am sure that you can appreciate that is does cause significant frustration to find that eBooks are significantly cheaper from other sellers, such as WH Smith, who do not have a partnership with Sony. Just to give you an example, i have looked at a couple of books on your website and Carra: My Autobiography by Jamie Carragher is £11.39 in hardback and £17.47 in eBook format. The eBook format is marked as having 20% off but still is significantly more expensive. Barack Obama's Dreams of my Father is priced at £5.39 in paperback and £7.18 in eBook format. Again, the eBook is marked at a 20% reduction but both the hardback and paperback prices i have quoted would be subject to an additional discount when you mail out promotional offers. Just for further information, the Sony PRS-505 is currently priced at £224 on your website but is available from WH Smith for £195. Perhaps a logical conclusion is that other resellers are extracting more advantageous terms from their negotiations with publishers? Thanks for the positive feedback regarding the templates used by your Customer Service Team; i can assure you that the hard work to replace these will result in a more positive perception from those that make enquiries to the Team. It is also good to hear that the search facility is being improved although the advanced search option is still very clunky and not anything like as slick as it is on other sites. I mean no offence at all but i still feel that Waterstones approach will do nothing but continue to alienate potential purchasers of eBooks. I agree that it is a developing technology, and will expand as time goes by, but this expansion is already happening; many other retailers are seizing the moment now and enjoying increased sales because of this. Perhaps i can best summarise the opportunity by referring to Apple and iTunes - people who are in the market place to buy technology gadgets want to buy the products to use upon them and they will seek other options if they are more competitive. I have already posted onto MobileRead that i have mailed yourselves and received initial positive feedback but i am certain that the disappointment and cynicism regarding Waterstones approach will remain once i update it with your reply. This is of great regret to me because i really would prefer to spend my money with you but, particularly in the current climate, i expect value for money and i am not receiving it from Waterstones. I wish you well with future developments in the eBook marketplace and hope that the current pricing policy does not mean that you miss an opportunity to capture the market that should be yours, as Sony's preferred partner, in the UK. Finally, i leave you with a few statistics about my own purchasing habits. I usually holiday three times a year and, on average, would purchase £100 or so worth of books per holiday. You can imagine the impact on my luggage allowance which is why i bought the Sony eReader when it was launched here. If you take this value, together with the £200 or so i have spent with Sony in the USA in the last six months, this gives you some indication of the expenditure that i no longer make with Waterstones. I have no pleasure in relaying this information; i would much prefer to continue to do spend it with you." Here is the reply i received today from the person who is the Development Buyer – eBooks and Internet, for Waterstones - "I'm the eBooks Buyer for Waterstones.com, and started a few months ago. I've read over your e-mail and am familiar with the discussion boards at mobileread, though I do not currently post there. My efforts are entirely focussed on improving our eBooks offering, as the market develops we see no reason why eBooks shouldn't be marketed and discounted just like their physical counterparts though we are unable to do so at present and so offer the blanket 20% discount on all eBooks. I am working with publishers to see what we can do to improve our offering and am focussed on a) improving range with new titles added every week b) usability that we will address with changes to the site this year c) value by finding ways of mirroring our approach from other formats on eBooks. I hope that as we develop our offering in the coming months we are able to regain your custom. Please do feel free to come back to me with any further points you wish to raise." Well, there we have it. I will acknowledge the reply but i just feel that they are missing the point that the market is already developed and competitive from other sources. Additionally, PieOPah has already posted Random House's reply regarding the prices being set by the retailer. I guess we must just wait and see what happens over the coming months.

05-01-2009, 05:31 PM	#50
PieOPah Addict Posts: 398 Karma: 914 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: UK Device: Sony PRS-505	It is a shame that the answers while sounding as positive as possible are still very political - they will give as much information as possible without actually answering any of the questions. I applaud your efforts for continually striving to get a fairer and better deal from Waterstones - personally I gave up... The one positive note that I did get from the reply was that the 'eBook Buyer' reads the forum (how much I have no idea - would be beneficial if he posted!) Still looking forward to the day that eBooks are fairly priced in the UK...

05-01-2009, 06:09 PM	#51
Tracey Connoisseur Posts: 67 Karma: 68 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Wilburton, Ely Device: Sony PRS-505	Thanks for the compliment PieOPah. Like you, i am pleased that we have had more than the standard Customer Service replies this time but it is disappointing that they won't budge. I truly believe their sales would increase if they reduced prices, even if just for a few weeks as a trial, and allowed us to vote with our wallets! I have replied to the buyer, who is called Alex, to thank him/her for the reply and asked that they do use this forum to gauge opinion and pointed out that this particular topic has been read in excess of 1900 times. I completely share your views about hoping to have competitive products available in the UK soon. I would welcome your opinion as to whether i should now approach Sony and express our collective disappointment to them? I know they are a big corporate company but they did commit us to Waterstones as the UK provider and should, in my opinion, want us to have competitive media available. What does anyone else think please?

05-04-2009, 03:15 PM	#54
Lycoming Capt Chaos II Posts: 483 Karma: 33043007 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cornwall, UK Device: iPad2	Nukewinter, do you have the UK Adobe Digital Editions and the US ADE on the same PC or is it necessary to erase the UK ADE prior to setting up the US account? What's Barak's zip code?

05-04-2009, 04:04 PM	#56
Lycoming Capt Chaos II Posts: 483 Karma: 33043007 Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cornwall, UK Device: iPad2	Thanks for the advice.

05-04-2009, 04:27 PM	#57
NuclearWinter Enthusiast Posts: 28 Karma: 10 Join Date: May 2009 Device: Sony PRS-505, Kindle PW2, iPad Mini, Nexus 6	Just noticed that you were talking about Adobe Digital Editions, is that what you meant? It's the Sony eBook Library software that you need for the Sony and Waterstones stores and which has the region restrictions. As far as I know there isn't a seperate UK or US specific edition of the ADE software, which is only needed for DRM'd EPUB and PDF files.

05-05-2009, 01:51 AM	#58
Curly I need a holiday! Posts: 1,227 Karma: 4622 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Scotland Device: PRS-505, ipod touch	You do not need to load or use the UK Sony software to buy from Waterstones or WH Smith and can purchase books directly from the website and download. The software just opens the regular webpage. You will need Adobe Digital Editions.

05-05-2009, 06:13 AM	#59
NuclearWinter Enthusiast Posts: 28 Karma: 10 Join Date: May 2009 Device: Sony PRS-505, Kindle PW2, iPad Mini, Nexus 6	Thanks, that's good to hear. In that case then you can order from both the US Sony store and Waterstones on the same machine.

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05-05-2009, 01:31 PM	#60
khalleron Kate Posts: 1,700 Karma: 3605799 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Oregon, United States Device: MeeBook, Kobo Libra Colour	Why not just buy from WHSMith? I'm in the US, but I just bought a series there that's not available in the US (irony, that) for less than the paperback prices on Amazon for the same books (and the 1st book isn't even available in pbook over here). If WHS has better pricing, better selection, better service, why bother with Waterstone's at all? Unless you're using PRS-500s. Then I can see the problem. Oh, and the complete White House address is 1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington, DC 20500