How long will old Kindle E-Ink devices remain viable?

[haertig]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

...books reappear after a reboot, new books disappear after a reboot, setting changes don't stick, etc. These are all symtoms of a worn out flash memory mounted readony. When other possibilities are eliminated, flash wearout is the most likely explanation.

I would place my vote for faulty software over worn out flash memory. Each bit of flash memory of the type that is built-in to inexpensive devices is typically good for over 100,000 write operations. Flash memory has "wear leveling" as well - so when one block is freed it is not usually overwritten immediately, a different block is used instead. And with these devices having gigabytes of flash, the chances of a given bit being overwritten greater than 100,000 times is basically non-existent.

One thing about flash memory that may come into play for eReaders is that it is not designed for long term storage. If you write a bit and then it sits there, unchanged, for a few years (5 to 7 typically) it may "lose its charge" and get corrupted. To keep this from happening the operating system can periodically refresh the flash memory (re-write the bits with the same value they already contain). This refreshes their charge and their memory is good for several more years. eReaders may not be sophisticated enough to do this compared to much more powerful (and smarter) computers. So the ebook that has been sitting there on your eReader for years may start experiencing some corruption. Or the area of flash that "remembers" if the book has been deleted or not may lose its charge. This does not mean the flash memory is bad. It means that the Operating System that manages the flash memory is dumb. You write to that drained bit and bingo, it's as good as new. "Good as new", unfortunately, may mean that it forgot what it used to contain before being refreshed to good as new status.

BTW, thumbdrives and microSD cards are subject to this same gradual loss of charge. So are SSD's, but those use higher end flash media and are somewhat less susceptible. This does not mean the flash memory is going bad. It means that it was used for long term storage - something it was not designed to do. If you want data to store for a longer period of time, store it on a magnetic hard drive. Those have their own problems - motor issues, head crashes, etc. - but pure data retention time is longer than flash memory. If the motor gums up and won't spin up, you of course will have issues accessing that still-stored data. That's why you pay good money to "data retrieval services" to retrieve your data.

[j.p.s]

I stand by my opinion that there have neen kindles that have died because the EMMC wore out.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by j.p.s

I stand by my opinion that there have neen kindles that have died because the EMMC wore out.

I didn't mean to imply that you can't believe that. You're of course entitled to your opinion, as is everyone. But I do think it is highly unlikely that worn out flash memory is the reason for anything more than a negligible, minuscule, number of Kindle failures. However, this is just my opinion. I am not a flash memory expert, even though I do have an electrical engineering degree and worked in computer science/engineering for many decades. But I never designed/developed flash memory specifically. I am familiar with it from continued learning and individual interest, but that only helped me form opinions regarding it, not be an expert on it. Flash memory wasn't even invented yet when I was in college!

[DNSB]

For what it may be worth, while the internal µSD cards used in quite a few Kobo ereaders are not designed for as long a write lifespan as most eMMC storage of the same generation, one issue that results in over 50% of requests for images involve the µSD card failing in a way that suggests that it has gone read-only. The other item is that years back when I was playing with replacing the internal µSD cards to increase the storage, I found that the small block read/write speeds were the key to improving performance. It didn't matter what the performance for writing video streams was, the small block performance was the critical parameter.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by haertig

…

Compared to a multi-purpose computer, tablets, or a smart phone, an eReader does amazingly little processing of anything. Their storage contents are near-static, only occasional changes relatively speaking.

I have never heard of an eReader wearing out its flash memory. Doesn't mean that it couldn't happen. But have you ever heard of it actually happening (other than a defect - I'm talking normal wear and tear)?

Flash can simply "fade" with age. It's not an archival medium. Some ereaders use an SD card but most Kindles use a soldered flash memory chip, not easily replaced. Though some don't even have feasible battery replacement.


There have been "bricked" / faulty ereaders reported here that sound very much like failed Flash chip or SD Card.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

There is also Pocketbook, better known in Europe maybe, but still a good choice for many use cases. And then there are Boox devices (Android), but those aren't much good if you want to keep your device strictly offline.

I've wondered about getting a 10" color Pocketbook E-Ink device, as I would like to be independent from Amazon and Kobo devices. But as they are unlikely to have the support (financial backing) to feel truly reliable, and they aren't exactly cheap, I've resisted.

In fact I was checking them out only months before Kobo released their almost two pointless color E-Ink readers ... almost pointless, because the real major benefit of color is only on a large 10" or more device, which we still don't have from Kobo or Kindle.

I would like a second Kobo device, and of course I want it to be color, but it also needs to be 10". There's got to be a real good reason to fork out that sort of money, as it adds to the cost of every ebook you buy.

I wonder how many color E-Ink devices Kobo and Amazon have sold. I bet they would have sold a lot more if they also provided 10" color devices.

Both my Keyboard Kindle and Paperwhite Kindle devices, still work well, so no need to update them, except I would like more storage space. I'm not the sort of person who feels they need to buy a new iPhone every year ... in fact I have an Android phone, and they can last me almost 10 years ... except when your country's chief telco does the dirty on you, after only five.

I rarely turn on my Keyboard Kindle, been that way for years now, so are always amazed that the battery still holds a charge for some weeks.

[Quoth]

If you really need colour, then Nxtpaper, or equivalent from others is the solution. Even 10" isn't big enough. The 14.25" Nxtpaper 14 is the first decent device I've seen (and have now) for PDF and large format colour items.

The Sage and B&W Libras (with frontlight off) are better for mono / novels, partly due to better size for reading novels, though two page layout is feasible on the Nxtpaper 11 and Nxtpaper 14.

[Timboli]

For me, a 14.25" E-Ink device is straying into small laptop territory, and no doubt has a price to match.

I would be happy enough with the equivalent of a standard size hard cover novel, so around 10". That would be good enough for reading biographies with lots of photos or graphic novels or magazines or even many comics ... not that I read many of them.

I suppose if I was into newspaper or text books an even larger device could be okay, but I'm an older guy now, and weight and size etc are important portability and handling considerations. I can read those two items on a laptop anyway.

If I go outside of Kobo and Kindle, the quality of production will be vital. I don't want anything cheap, it has to be well made and thought out. I also prefer to buy local ... I'm not a fan of buying hardware from overseas, or anything else other than digital files. I have to see and touch and hopefully try, before I buy.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Timboli

For me, a 14.25" E-Ink device is straying into small laptop territory, and no doubt has a price to match.

I'm not sure it exists. The 13" approx eink are not yet 300 dpi and very expensive.
A Nxtpaper 11 (10.9") can be cheaper than 8" mono eink and the Nxtpaper 14 (14.25") is only a bit more expensive than 8" mono eink and lighter than my 11" "laptop" (really a Chromebook). It's a huge lot lighter than my 15" laptop.

But I read novels mostly on the 8″ Kobo Sage. I only use the 14.25" screen for stuff that needs it.

[slm]

Just got this in an email. Is it a prelude to ending support for older Kindles?

Happy anniversary. You've been a Kindle reader for 13 years!
 
You registered your first Kindle device 13 years ago this month. To reward you for your loyalty, this month only, we're giving you 20% off any current generation Kindle with code KA2025 at checkout. This offer ends on 2025-04-30, terms and conditions apply.

[odamizu]

Originally Posted by slm

Just got this in an email. Is it a prelude to ending support for older Kindles?

Happy anniversary. You've been a Kindle reader for 13 years!
 
You registered your first Kindle device 13 years ago this month. To reward you for your loyalty, this month only, we're giving you 20% off any current generation Kindle with code KA2025 at checkout. This offer ends on 2025-04-30, terms and conditions apply.

Hmmm ... that certainly sounds like they may be moving toward a phase-out of older Kindles ...

[kandwo]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I'm not sure it exists. The 13" approx eink are not yet 300 dpi and very expensive.
A Nxtpaper 11 (10.9") can be cheaper than 8" mono eink and the Nxtpaper 14 (14.25") is only a bit more expensive than 8" mono eink and lighter than my 11" "laptop" (really a Chromebook). It's a huge lot lighter than my 15" laptop.

But I read novels mostly on the 8″ Kobo Sage. I only use the 14.25" screen for stuff that needs it.

Carta 1300 13" screens are 300 PPI. See the Onyx Boox Note Max, for instance. Or are you talking about colour e-ink?

[issybird]

Originally Posted by slm

Just got this in an email. Is it a prelude to ending support for older Kindles?

Happy anniversary. You've been a Kindle reader for 13 years!
 
You registered your first Kindle device 13 years ago this month. To reward you for your loyalty, this month only, we're giving you 20% off any current generation Kindle with code KA2025 at checkout. This offer ends on 2025-04-30, terms and conditions apply.

I’m underwhelmed. It’s the same as the trade-in discount. So you get to keep your device, but you don’t get a gift card (admittedly low value for an old Kindle). If there was a sale by the end of the month and I could double-dip, I’d consider it, but otherwise I’d wait on a sale and do a trade-in, if I were in the market.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by issybird

I’m underwhelmed. It’s the same as the trade-in discount. So you get to keep your device, but you don’t get a gift card (admittedly low value for an old Kindle).

I wonder if this coupon can be combined with a trade in for a double discount.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I'm not sure it exists. The 13" approx eink are not yet 300 dpi and very expensive.
A Nxtpaper 11 (10.9") can be cheaper than 8" mono eink and the Nxtpaper 14 (14.25") is only a bit more expensive than 8" mono eink and lighter than my 11" "laptop" (really a Chromebook). It's a huge lot lighter than my 15" laptop.

Oh, weren't you talking about E-Ink, when you said 14.25" Nxtpaper?
I'm only after E-Ink. I've already got a great 10" Samsung Tablet, which I use for my color needs and large screen ebook requirements ... though I'd rather use a color 10" E-Ink device if I could.