Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Why should I?
They don't have the books I want in the language I want.

You are being intentionally obtuse.

[Sirtel]

And the whole argument about a license per device is just wrong. The standard license is per 6 devices. In the case of books without DRM it's often unlimited. Again, it's against the Amazon TOS to read their books on non-Kindle devices or apps, because they want you to buy the book from them. It's not a question of a single license per device at all.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Again, it's against the Amazon TOS to read their books on non-Kindle devices or apps, because they want you to buy the book from them. It's not a question of a single license per device at all.

Thank you for confirming the trap and binding to the shop.
And that is what all "branded" devices do that have a book shop behind them - Kindle, Kobo, ...., the device price is cross-financed by buying books. And the buyer pays for that - always.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And don't forget how pBooks cause the loss of income to authors. Someone buys a pBook, reads it and then passes it on to someone else to read and so on and so on.

Yes, with the purchase of a paper book you have acquired property, which is not the case with the purchase of a license for a file.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Thank you for confirming the trap and binding to the shop.
And that is what all "branded" devices do that have a book shop behind them - Kindle, Kobo, ...., the device price is cross-financed by buying books. And the buyer pays for that - always.

I'm not bound to any shop and buy wherever I want. No one's stopping me.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Wrong - it's part of copyright law in EU.
I don't know about other countries - maybe it's legal in Somalia or Tibet or .... .

No, you have a distorted view of EU Copyright law.
Also DRM is nothing to do with copyright.
Contracts, terms and conditions may not all be legally enforceable.

People HAVE been sued for "sharing" content. I can't find any example in Europe of someone either being prosecuted for breaking a criminal law or sued for a civil offence relating to format shifting DVD to SD card, CD or LP to cassette, ebook to a different ebook format etc, FOR PERSONAL consumption. It's only giving or selling content to a third party is a problem. Often a civil suit is invoked for any kind of piracy, as the criminal offences have limited fines or prison terms. So for example, card sharing or pirate set boxes for Cable or Satellite TV subscriptions, the CRIMINAL offence is Theft of Service. That's almost NEVER invoked. They bring a CIVIL action of copyright/rights infringement and prove loss of income based on how many other people got the content. This applies to Video subscription, books (paper or ebook), DVD, BD, CDs etc.

So NO-ONE ANYWHERE is going to bring a CIVIL case against someone reading an ebook on a different device, no matter if DRM is involved or not, IF you bought it AND ONLY you are reading it (consuming it). There is NO loss of income at all. So the court case would result in a fine of zero and severe costs for the publisher.
The DMCA is a USA law. In Europe it's dubious that if it's true it's illegal to remove DRM or format convert FOR PERSONAL USE what you bought yourself, and is NOT shared, that ANY EU or UK Prosecutor would waste money on such a case, even if technically illegal. Which is contentious.

Copyright Law. Clue is in the name. It's about rights to make copies and distribute them. No-one is going to prosecute you for making backups or format shifting. Ebooks, CDs, BD, DVD, VHS, Cassette. Even paper. You can even digitize paper that's copyright and in the US that's been agreed in court to be legal if it's not re-published, though that judgement is flawed as the Microsoft and Google did not purchase copies of the works. That's a far more generous ruling than personal format shifting.

The actual form of the content, (audio, text, images, video) and storage medium it's delivered on to you is irrelevant to copyright law. You can't give or sell copies to a third party. You can compost your own copy.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes, with the purchase of a paper book you have acquired property, which is not the case with the purchase of a license for a file.

No, actually the law for the content is exactly the same. It's simple to pass on a physically stored content such as CD, DVD, VHS, paper books. The issue with a digital download is the proof you didn't keep a copy as it's so trivial to copy.

However with CDs, DVD, BD it's now simple to copy. You are on your honour to destroy your copies if you pass on the physical media.

Some people can cheaply, simply and easily copy a paper book. You are on your honour to destroy your digitised copies if you pass on the physical media.

So I don't know what the future holds for transferring media content. Even with a paper book you just have a consumption licence. You own the physical medium but not the words printed on it.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

What is defended so vehemently here is ultimately theft / embezzlement, in that the compensation due to the publisher and thus also the author is not provided and at best differs gradually from the download of illegal sites.

Could you explain to me how purchasing an ebook from Kobo and converting it to read on my Kindle or vice versa keeps the compensation due to the publisher and/or author (in many cases these days, the author is the publisher) from being paid.

Your attempt to conflate legally purchasing an ebook and format conversion as being equivalent to pirating ebooks is at best risible and at worst suggestive of an inability to reason.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

But "branded" devices do not offer the capabilities offered by Android devices.
They may be more convenient to use - but only to a very limited extent.
If that's enough for you, you can pay more in total.
In any case, I can get the books from anywhere and read them in whatever setting I want.
And that is not directly possible with any "brand" device without "messing around".

I imagine that Onyx BOOX or Boyue would be rather surprised to find that their devices are not "branded". To quote "A brand is an identifying symbol, mark, logo, name, word, and/or sentence that companies use to distinguish their product from others." Onyx BOOX would be an example of such.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Could you explain to me how purchasing an ebook from Kobo and converting it to read on my Kindle or vice versa keeps the compensation due to the publisher and/or author (in many cases these days, the author is the publisher) from being paid.

Your attempt to conflate legally purchasing an ebook and format conversion as being equivalent to pirating ebooks is at best risible and at worst suggestive of an inability to reason.

I already asked him that. He was unable to explain, partly having his information just plain wrong (i.e. one license per device, which isn't the case) and partly having all the various laws, rules and terms pertaining to copyright, licenses and compensating authors mixed together in his head.

[ottdmk]

Here's a good overview of the Canadian approach to format shifting: Michael Geist's blog post on the matter.

It *is* illegal to break digital locks here, which, imho, is rampant stupidity. However, in the absence of DRM (TOR ebooks, Baen, numerous others) format shifting is perfectly legal.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

But "branded" devices do not offer the capabilities offered by Android devices.
They may be more convenient to use - but only to a very limited extent.
If that's enough for you, you can pay more in total.
In any case, I can get the books from anywhere and read them in whatever setting I want.
And that is not directly possible with any "brand" device without "messing around".

I can get eBooks from Amazon in KF8 or Mobi and read them on my Kobo. How is that a problem? I don't buy eBooks I cannot remove the DRM so I will never need apps that support eBooks I cannot remove the DRM.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ottdmk

Here's a good overview of the Canadian approach to format shifting: Michael Geist's blog post on the matter.

It *is* illegal to break digital locks here, which, imho, is rampant stupidity. However, in the absence of DRM (TOR ebooks, Baen, numerous others) format shifting is perfectly legal.

But the question that's not been tested in court is if Fair Use trumps DRM removal blocking law. Fair Use was around first. For all we know, the law could be what's illegal.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Could you explain to me how purchasing an ebook from Kobo and converting it to read on my Kindle or vice versa keeps the compensation due to the publisher and/or author (in many cases these days, the author is the publisher) from being paid.

Also very easy. If you read on two different types of devices (e.g. Kindle and Kobo), you need two different files - thus two licenses. And if you only bought one, then you withhold the amount for the second.

Your attempt to conflate legally purchasing an ebook and format conversion as being equivalent to pirating ebooks is at best risible and at worst suggestive of an inability to reason.

Simply by removing DRM for whatever reason, redistribution is made possible.
And that is against the law, at least in the EU, and also punishable.
In addition, any change to the file is a violation of copyright law and a conversion from xxx to yyy means a file change.
And even if it isn't discovered, it doesn't change the facts.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Also very easy. If you read on two different types of devices (e.g. Kindle and Kobo), you need two different files - thus two licenses. And if you only bought one, then you withhold the amount for the second.

That's not true. You can read the same epub on as many different devices as you want. On a Kobo, on a Nook, on a Pocketbook, in an app and so on. A Kindle is the only device you can't read it on, and that's not because the author wants to be paid twice, but because Amazon wants you to be solely in their ecosystem. The author is compensated no matter whether I read the book on a Kindle or on a Kobo. You're saying that violating the Amazon TOS by converting their book is the same as stealing from the author, but that's absurd. Do you buy your books twice, for the Kindle app and for the Kobo app? If you don't, aren't you stealing that imaginary second license from the author the same way?