Urgent - Related to Sigil-0.9.18

[exaltedwombat]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Discovering how ... how should I say this? Un-genius-like(?) many surgeons actually seemed to be was a real eye-opener for me.

To me, the episode demonstrated the difference between a protocol-driven 'health professional' and the more holistic approach of an experienced doctor.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by KevinH

I added a link to Tex2000ans PageEdit install / use guide as a new post to the sticky “Where is Book View” thread.

Although I just whipped that post up off-the-cuff... it wasn't my greatest work!

Originally Posted by Hitch

I mean to say--I KNOW that you two, Diap and Kev, don't deal with this kind of thing everyday (and be happy for that!), but I do.

[...]

I'm trying to think about how to reduce the number of questions and I recognize far too well your irritation.

[...]

IF Tex would post on it, which I know he'll do (it's like knowing that Halley's Comet will come past again...), his points on it really are better than mine.

Yeah, I sensed the extreme frustration from Kevin/Diap, which is why I decided to whip up those easy step-by-step instructions (WITH PICTURES).

Hopefully that'll alleviate some of the Book View questions, but there's still a lot more that can be done.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I do want to say that Tex's comment--that the PE installation is a bit much for The Average Bear--is correct.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, (because of that blog I haven't been getting around to... lol).

One thing I've been doing lately is trying to look at ebook creation through the lens of less technically savvy eyes.

Not to throw anyone under the bus here, but my good friend Gregg Bell for example. He's your typical author-user.

The typical author might:

• Only use Sigil once every few months, maybe once a year when they complete a book.
• Be used to Word/GoogleDocs/WYSWIG
  • They've never seen code/HTML/CSS in their entire lives.
  • This is why I think Book View (or now PageEdit) is a fantastic gateway.
    • I'll probably write a more detailed response later this week.

For the past 5+ years (?), every time there's a new Sigil (or LibreOffice) update, he's asking me if he should upgrade, and my answer is always:

"Yes! Upgrade. They just fix bugs that you probably will never run across and are always making Sigil better."

As was discussed, most users don't read the release notes to know which specific technical bugs were fixed, that would be way over their heads... but they do know the newer versions are (usually) better.

(Again, this is good practice we've been beating into their heads for years... UPDATE/PATCH YOUR OS/PROGRAMS DAMMIT.)

All of a sudden, some program they've been using for 5+ years on 5 books looks and functions vastly different just because it went from 0.9.14 to 0.9.15+.

Originally Posted by PeterT

Maybe the final release with bookview should have been released as 1.0.0 and the versions without it renumbered from 2.x on

I agree... it could've been handled a bit more tactfully.

I know I know, we have our programmer hats on, and version numbers don't mean much. But usually you would save a major (breaking) change for major version numbers.

I think that would've relieved some of these "Book View is gone" posts as well.

It could've turned into a large positive:

"Sigil v1.0 removed Book View."

Then there would also be an easy response to say: "If you still want Book View? Use v1.0 with PageEdit OR use the old Sigil v0.9."

And then when that major rewrite is finally completed:

"Sigil v2.0 has better EPUB3 support + a major internal rewrite to handle more flexible file structure."

(Yay, the only people who are going to be happy about that one is a small subset of power users!... but the typical author-user?)

Originally Posted by KevinH

I am confused ... PageEdit is installed just like any other standalone app. [...] This is documented in the latest version of the Sigil User's guide and in the release notes. It is not difficult.

Originally Posted by Hitch

When I look the Page Edit instructions, yeah, they're easy-peasy for us. But in thinking about what Tex said, I suspect he's right. We're still getting a lot of users that are looking for Word-plus and removing BV isn't going to change that.

I finally decided to test the latest Sigil + install PageEdit in a VM to take those screenshots... and when I got to the Github, the "typical author-user" was on my mind.

My Book View Is Missing. I Need to Install PageEdit

A search for PageEdit in Google (and some MR links) leads you here:

https://github.com/Sigil-Ebook/PageEdit/releases

or here:

https://github.com/Sigil-Ebook/PageEdit

Again, think "typical author". They open the page, and what do they see? Horrifying:



even if you scroll wayyy down:



Author: The instant they see words they finally understand: "Mac + Windows."... Build instructions, code blocks... wtf is this?

If they do scroll back up and click that little Releases tab.

Downloading from Github

The typical user needs an easy page. Big giant Download button, and human-readable links like this:

Sigil v0.9.18 (Latest Version):

• Windows
• Mac
• Linux
• [... further down...]
• Detailed Changelog (Link to Github)

Currently, they finally make it to the Github Releases page:



And yes, while Github is absolutely fantastic (and easy) for us programmers/power users... this is not very friendly:

• Big giant changelog.
• Big paragraphs of who knows what.
• [...]
• Assets in teeny tiny font.
  • PageEdit-0.9.5.zip.sig
  • PageEdit-0.9.5.tar.gz.sig
  • PageEdit_0.9.5-Win_x64.exe
  • PageEdit.app-0.9.5-Mac.txz
  • [...]
  • Source code (zip)
  • Source code (tar.gz)

Author: WTF! How do I download? What are those millions of files + extensions.

If they do piece together downloading Win + exe (probably words they recognize).

Installation Instructions

Then, they might even eventually stumble upon the PageEdit installation instructions (on a completely separate page from their downloads!):

Extract PageEdit somewhere... then go dig into the Sigil preferences.

"Set your preferred alternative external xhtml editor".

They'll see that and not understand 99% of that jargon. (Heck, even I'll admit, I didn't know wtf that setting was either even as I wrote those instructions.)

Finally, after hours of pulling my hair out... if I made it this far... I can now push the little paper and pencil icon to get a "Book View window to pop up" in Sigil v0.9.18.

Anyway, I hope you at least Kevin+Diap at least see some of the points I'm making here... and when I read posts about you guys getting rid of the Sigil website and pushing everything to Github, my eyes nearly pop out of my head!

The Sigil site/blog could be adjusted towards an "easy gateway", while the Github can continue to be for our hardcore users.

[KevinH]

Again pull requests for the Sigil User Guide welcome. If anyone wants to write a PageEdit User Guide we would be happy to include it.

If someone wanted to create a Quick Start document for either package, we would include it.

FWIW, We have never followed the normal versioning number system. And removing a broken "feature" like BookView could not wait until we reach 1.0.

So again, people can complain, moan, pester, etc about their particular itch but given how busy we are with major changes, do not expect much unless somebody additional steps up to help somehow.

Just since DiapDealer and I started Sigil has:

- gained the ability to preserve entities
- designed and implemented an entire plugin system and interface to it
- embedded a Python Interpreter to support plugins and extend Sigil
- fixed many many many crashing bugs and other bugs
- replaced the broken parser with our own gumbo based parser to allow for html5
- added support for mathml in Preview
- added support for editing epub3's
- improved support for audio, video, javascript, etc
- wrote many plugins to extend Sigil (along with many other people here! - Thank you!
- ported away from an old and broken QWebKit to a supported QWebEngine
- removed a broken BookView that encouraged novice users to break things and then blame us when it did not pass epubcheck

And now we are working to remove the requirement to use use Sigil's standardized structure.

So if anyone else wants to get involved and help Sigil, we would welcome the offer. Right now we are at the limit and all these "suggestions" to do more or change things really are not helping.

We are focusing our attention on getting a Sigil 1.0 out there that serious users and epub developers can use to create high quality epub2 and epub3 epubs. Novice users who know no css and no html really are not our worry nor our target at this time.

If you feel differently, then volunteer to pitch in and help in some way.

[un_pogaz]

@Tex2002ans: Agree with everything you said (and one lesson of argumentation for me.)
An probably inexpensive way to solve this would be to include PageEdit in the Sigil installer.

To Kevin and DiapDealer, I would like to apologize for my insistence on the subject. It's true that you are a volunteer on Sigil, and you're doing a great job.
Simply, I have always considered BookView (or the WYSWIG) as acquired in the development of Sigil, perfectible but acquired. A redesign, of course, it seemed necessary, but a total disappearance, not. It's incomprehensible to me because, in a way, it was contrary to what I knew about Sigil.

[odamizu]

I sympathize with people who are distraught at the loss of BookView. Whenever developers go in a direction that doesn't suit me, I get upset, too (case in point: Apple's macOS).

But I think it should also be said that some of us welcomed the removal of BookView and have no desire to have PageEdit added to the Sigil installer and incorporated inextricably into Sigil.

KevinH and DiapDealer have gone to great pains to provide an alternative to BookView, and it seems straightforward enough (to me) for people who want WYSIWYG functionality to install PageEdit and link it to Sigil.

For those who find PageEdit an unacceptable alternative, they can always stick with 0.9.14, which works perfectly well (just as I have stuck with macOS 10.13, even as Apple prepares to release 10.15).

The point is, KevinH and DiapDealer have provided a lot of choices here:

• If you don't want/need/use WYSIWYG, then straight Sigil 0.9.18+ is for you. Yay!
• If you want/need/use WYSIWYG, add PageEdit
• If you can't live without BookView, stick with 0.9.14

It's not like BookView was deleted from the universe. It's not like an alternative wasn't provided and isn't being actively developed. On the contrary, for me at least, there are more choices, not fewer, because now I have the choice of a leaner Sigil unencumbered by a WYSIWYG editor, while still having the option of adding one if at some point I decide I want one.

[najgori]

+1

agreed

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by KevinH

Just since DiapDealer and I started Sigil has:

[...]

Absolutely fantastic work you've been doing so far.

I'm very grateful when you two picked up the mantle after user_none left.

If I would've been stuck with Calibre Editor... while it's okay, I think Sigil is just so much better.

Originally Posted by KevinH

We are focusing our attention on getting a Sigil 1.0 out there that serious users and epub developers can use to create high quality epub2 and epub3 epubs. Novice users who know no css and no html really are not our worry nor our target at this time.

The giant burden of technical support is driving everyone's patience thin.

But it's a big mistake alienating a large portion of the userbase (the author-users).

Originally Posted by odamizu

KevinH and DiapDealer have gone to great pains to provide an alternative to BookView, and it seems simple enough (to me) for people who want WYSIWYG functionality to install PageEdit and link it to Sigil.

The exact people who need PageEdit's functionality (noobs and authors) are the exact ones who would find the separate installation instructions incomprehensible.

Hence them appearing in the forums in droves (and I predict they'll continue coming... since most of these only need Sigil once or twice a year).

Originally Posted by un_pogaz

An probably inexpensive way to solve this would be to include PageEdit in the Sigil installer.

This is what I was telling Hitch over webcam (which she referenced in Post #30).

I know it defeats a lot of the purpose of getting rid of Book View and making it a completely separate thing (for technical reasons)... but some sort of bundling should be considered.

And maybe something along the lines:

Default the External Editor button to PageEdit, and then technical users can be the ones who can dig into the settings and change/upgrade if needed.

So when yet another "Where's Book View" topic comes, we could easily say:

"You see that paper and pencil icon? That's the new Book View."

(But us technical users will know the real truth. )

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

But it's a big mistake alienating a large portion of the userbase (the author-users).

We're not trying to alienate anyone. Authors have never been the intended target for Sigil. We have not billed it as such, nor has it ever been billed as an authorial tool. If some people find it works for them to use it to write books, that's fine. But that's not our target user-base.

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

The exact people who need PageEdit's functionality (noobs and authors) are the exact ones who would find the separate installation instructions incomprehensible.

Again: not at all our goal to appeal to, or to appease, users who know nothing about epub structure and/or html/css. Never has been.

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

Hence them appearing in the forums in droves (and I predict they'll continue coming... since most of these only need Sigil once or twice a year).

Once or twice a year? Yeah, that's not the user-base we're targeting. Sorry. I'm not going to concern myself at all with users who need Sigil once a year. Plus .... "Droves" is a bit of an exaggeration, no?. I get cranky because people don't at least TRY to use the resources that are available to help themselves. But the number of malcontents doesn't worry me at all. We're pushing 9K downloads of the Windows 0.9.18 installer. The squeaky wheels are a bit annoying, but not overwhelming.

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

And maybe something along the lines:

Default the External Editor button to PageEdit, and then technical users can be the ones who can dig into the settings and change/upgrade if needed.

So when yet another "Where's Book View" topic comes, we could easily say:

"You see that paper and pencil icon? That's the new Book View."

(But us technical users will know the real truth. )

This is simply not going to happen. Please put it out of your head. The only way to pre-configure that button to launch PageEdit is to deliver PageEdit with Sigil. And we're not. going. to. do. that.

When I have some time to waste (or someone else finds some time or inclination to contribute) I may create a Windows installer for PageEdit. But there's never going to be a combined Sigil/PagEdit installer, nor will any future PageEdit installer seek to automatically insinuate itself into an existing Sigil installation. But I'm in no hurry. The self-extracting archive is quite sufficient and straight-forward. Anyone who struggles with it is going to struggle with Sigil anyway.

[DiapDealer]

And again (and again and again and again) ... Book View is alive and well in versions of Sigil before 0.9.15. People who need it should use it. I don't say that to be mean, or facetious--I really mean it. If you (rhetorical) only need Sigil once or twice a year, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't stick with a version that already does everything you need it to do.

[odamizu]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

... most of these only need Sigil once or twice a year ...

Wait, seriously??? You're asking all this on behalf of users who only need Sigil once or twice a year???

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

...This is simply not going to happen. Please put it out of your head. The only way to pre-configure that button to launch PageEdit is to deliver PageEdit with Sigil. And we're not. going. to. do. that ...

... there's never going to be a combined Sigil/PagEdit installer, not will any future PageEdit installer seek to automatically insinuate itself into an existing Sigil installation ...

Oh thank god. And by god, I mean the gods of Sigil, also known as DiapDealer and KevinH.

P.S. @Tex2002ans et al. — While I know enough html/css to tweak my ebooks, I am not a developer/programmer/coder. GitHub intimidates me. Regex makes my brain whimper. Some of the discussions on this forum make me feel like a toddler sitting in a high chair listening to adults talking at the dinner table. If I open a Terminal window, I need someone to hold my hand and tell me exactly what to type in. Nevertheless, I was able to figure out how to install PageEdit and link it to that button — and then unlink and delete it when I decided it wasn't for me. If someone already knows enough to use Sigil, I really think they can figure out PageEdit. It might require a little effort, but it doesn't seem unreasonable or insurmountable.

[Notjohn]

>(Heck, even I'll admit, I didn't know wtf that setting was either even as I wrote those instructions.)

Tex, thank you so much for that!

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by odamizu

You're asking all this on behalf of users who only need Sigil once or twice a year???

How often do authors finish writing books?

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Tex, thank you so much for that!

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

How often do authors finish writing books?

Depends on how prolific they are... However, people who create/design ePubs use Sigil quite regularly. On a good day I've been know to finish 6-7 books in a single day.

[exaltedwombat]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Depends on how prolific they are... However, people who create/design ePubs use Sigil quite regularly. On a good day I've been know to finish 6-7 books in a single day.

Yeah. I could do that if I got sent well-formatted Word documents. But why would anyone pay me to do those? I get the 'sorry, we only have the final PDF' jobs.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Depends on how prolific they are... However, people who create/design ePubs use Sigil quite regularly. On a good day I've been know to finish 6-7 books in a single day.

We do. We use Sigil to finish ePUBs, which means that something like 4500+ eBooks have been through Sigil at my shop. Tex, too--he finishes in Sigil and uses it extensively. He has a whackload under his belt, too. As does Turtle, Wombat and the entire gang of miscreants here. :-D

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

Yeah. I could do that if I got sent well-formatted Word documents. But why would anyone pay me to do those? I get the 'sorry, we only have the final PDF' jobs.

What's a "well-formatted Word document"? LOL. I have ONE inhouse right now. ONE. With at least 80 books in live/active production. For us, typically, 50-60% are from PDF/INDD; the rest are from various other file types, most Word, but OO, LO, Pages, Bob's Big Word Processor and so forth.

I honestly don't remember the last time I saw a document with paragraph styles. I have that one, right now, that used heading styles; OTOH, I have another in which each and every paragraph displays on the Nav Pane, because the formatter (?) or typist created a body paragraph style identified as "Level 1." (sigh).

Hitch