Chapter formatting

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by graycyn

I think you may have found it!

This seems like it might be the issue:



Going more specific by applying spans and classes did work, and it seems this is what they are suggesting. I'd forgotten that kepub has extra div and span tags added.

I sure liked the simplicity of h2 span, but I think I'd rather have a book that, when converted to kepub, looks the same as it would in ADE, Kindle and iBooks.


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Hmmm, nice of Kobo to add codes to the book itself...

However, the change needed shouldn't be too bad:

<h3>Chapter 1 <span class="subtit">The Sub-Title</span></h3>

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But using a % like you did is not going to work. It means that with different size screens, you get different amounts of space. Also, you have to remember, this is a screen. What may have worked for a pBook doesn't mean it works for an eBook. You may not be able to duplicate the look and feel of this pBook and have it work. It's a different medium. For example, I've seen pBooks where the hardcover was printed exactly the same for a MMPB and because of this, the size of the print for the MMPB was too small.



Don't do things that don't work. 18% and 15% space around a chapter title does not work for an eBook. Having offset text (like in a blockquote) be smaller doesn't always work. Having the main text be smaller then 1em doesn't work. Having large left/right margins doesn't work. Embedding a font just because it was the font used in the pBook doesn't work (there are cases where it does work, but in most cases it doesn't work). Graphics have to be of high resolution or they may not work. Do not a graphics of text just because it's easier then created the code as that doesn't work. You have to create your eBook so it works as an eBook and no as thought it was a pBook.

Here's the thing. I like *some* space around chapter headers. It's pretty normal in print. Yes, ebooks aren't print. I get that if you go too far, it's not ideal. And I may well go with less space. I try to stay on the conservative side.

But we might have different definitions of what works and what doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, I don't mind too much in the way of publisher styling on an ebook as long as I can read the book. As long as I can access all the content, I'm good, the book works, IMHO.

I've run into books where I can't access everything, either because font size was fixed very small and not adjustable or images were too small to see necessary details, or a font was embedded that simply was too light and thin for visibility on e-ink. Or color use that didn't account for how certain shades can be near invisible on e-ink. Those are things that makes a book NOT WORK, because they prevent accessing content.

I'm not embedding fonts. I'm not mandating crazy margins. The graphics will be high resolution. In black and white PNG. Main text is 1em.

Yes, some screen space is wasted around the chapter header. But ONLY for the chapter header. And nothing is unreadable.

I've seen and read books from the major publishers where they have set larger top and bottom margins than I have, but the books are readable. I've got one from the library now. Anne Boleyn, A King's Obsession by Alison Weir. The header is centered and takes 50% of the vertical screen space at my preferred font size on my Kobo Aura ONE. It consists of the chapter number, an ornamental graphic and a date. But it doesn't look awful, it looks much like a print book would. Yes, if you blow the font size up much further, this look goes south pretty quick, as with enough font size, the header occupies the page by itself or worse, goes to two pages. Even so, there is no impediment to reading this particular book. Therefore, again, IMHO, it works.

The current book is for myself, but one of my Dad's books hits public domain next year, so if I do that one, for MR, I will certainly consider what you've said for chapter header margins.










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[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Hmmm, nice of Kobo to add codes to the book itself...



However, the change needed shouldn't be too bad:

<h3>Chapter 1 <span class="subtit">The Sub-Title</span></h3>

Thanks, I'll try this!


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[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by graycyn

Here's the thing. I like *some* space around chapter headers. It's pretty normal in print. Yes, ebooks aren't print. I get that if you go too far, it's not ideal. And I may well go with less space. I try to stay on the conservative side.

But we might have different definitions of what works and what doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, I don't mind too much in the way of publisher styling on an ebook as long as I can read the book. As long as I can access all the content, I'm good, the book works, IMHO.

I've run into books where I can't access everything, either because font size was fixed very small and not adjustable or images were too small to see necessary details, or a font was embedded that simply was too light and thin for visibility on e-ink. Or color use that didn't account for how certain shades can be near invisible on e-ink. Those are things that makes a book NOT WORK, because they prevent accessing content.

I'm not embedding fonts. I'm not mandating crazy margins. The graphics will be high resolution. In black and white PNG. Main text is 1em.

Yes, some screen space is wasted around the chapter header. But ONLY for the chapter header. And nothing is unreadable.

I've seen and read books from the major publishers where they have set larger top and bottom margins than I have, but the books are readable. I've got one from the library now. Anne Boleyn, A King's Obsession by Alison Weir. The header is centered and takes 50% of the vertical screen space at my preferred font size on my Kobo Aura ONE. It consists of the chapter number, an ornamental graphic and a date. But it doesn't look awful, it looks much like a print book would. Yes, if you blow the font size up much further, this look goes south pretty quick, as with enough font size, the header occupies the page by itself or worse, goes to two pages. Even so, there is no impediment to reading this particular book. Therefore, again, IMHO, it works.

The current book is for myself, but one of my Dad's books hits public domain next year, so if I do that one, for MR, I will certainly consider what you've said for chapter header margins.

There are lots of things you can do in an eBook that don't work. But yes, you can still read. Just because it's readable doesn't make it enjoyable. The example chapter heading you gave is readable but not enjoyable. Having paragraph spaces is readable but not enjoyable. That's the difference. Readable doesn't not always mean enjoyable. So it has to be enjoyable to read which is why the formatting has to be done well so it is enjoyable to read.

When you format an eBook, you want to keep to n many defaults as possible so when the software in use has options to override things, that the overrides work The overrides you (at least) want to work are font size, the font, line hight, and margins. Leave the margins at 0, no line height, no body font size and that goes for offset text (do not make it smaller), do not embed a font unless you have to, and when it comes to widows and orphans, it is more readable if they are set to 1.

I've seen a lot of eBooks made poorly that are readable. So don't just go with can it be read as your criteria for a well formatted eBook. That doesn't work. I can take a plain text file and read it. But it's not going to look all that nice.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Hmmm, nice of Kobo to add codes to the book itself...

However, the change needed shouldn't be too bad:

<h3>Chapter 1 <span class="subtit">The Sub-Title</span></h3>

Hmmm.... the only books that Kobo adds their kepub modifications to are those that are purchased from the Kobo store and downloaded directly from Kobo's servers to a Kobo device or app. That others have looked at Kobo's additions and created various ways to add those extras to sideloaded books is not (IMHO) a Kobo corporate issue.

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

There are lots of things you can do in an eBook that don't work. But yes, you can still read. Just because it's readable doesn't make it enjoyable. The example chapter heading you gave is readable but not enjoyable. Having paragraph spaces is readable but not enjoyable. That's the difference. Readable doesn't not always mean enjoyable. So it has to be enjoyable to read which is why the formatting has to be done well so it is enjoyable to read.

Very true, but different people are going to find different things enjoyable. I personally enjoy some space about chapter headers, it has the feel of print book to me, vs. everything squashed at the top of a page. But some will prefer the second! I did make some changes to my book. Not to the extent you wanted, but spacing changes were made.

One of the first books I did, right after getting my first reader, I sent to two friends. I'd made the book with an HTML TOC up front, along with the regular NCX.

One friend HATED the HTML TOC, telling me her iPad provided a table of contents and she didn't like extra stuff at the front of the book to page through.

The other friend, reading on one of the very early Kindles, told me she LOVED the HTML TOC, because it helped her navigate. Different strokes for different folks.

I just read another library book, has even more white space than the last one. A Mrs. Murphy mystery by Rita Mae Brown. This one has nearly 2/3 white space at my preferred font size. Chapter number, date, day and a cute ornament that occupies a largish first line indent and extends above the line. I'm totally enjoying the look! It may not be terribly practical for small screens, but it gives me that print book feeling in spades. That bit of joy outweighs practical for me.

Anyway, started on one of my Dad's old books, no funky chapter heading stuff there. Centered and spaced fairly close. You'd likely approve.


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[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by graycyn

Very true, but different people are going to find different things enjoyable. I personally enjoy some space about chapter headers, it has the feel of print book to me, vs. everything squashed at the top of a page. But some will prefer the second! I did make some changes to my book. Not to the extent you wanted, but spacing changes were made.

One of the first books I did, right after getting my first reader, I sent to two friends. I'd made the book with an HTML TOC up front, along with the regular NCX.

One friend HATED the HTML TOC, telling me her iPad provided a table of contents and she didn't like extra stuff at the front of the book to page through.

The other friend, reading on one of the very early Kindles, told me she LOVED the HTML TOC, because it helped her navigate. Different strokes for different folks.

I just read another library book, has even more white space than the last one. A Mrs. Murphy mystery by Rita Mae Brown. This one has nearly 2/3 white space at my preferred font size. Chapter number, date, day and a cute ornament that occupies a largish first line indent and extends above the line. I'm totally enjoying the look! It may not be terribly practical for small screens, but it gives me that print book feeling in spades. That bit of joy outweighs practical for me.

Anyway, started on one of my Dad's old books, no funky chapter heading stuff there. Centered and spaced fairly close. You'd likely approve.

I find that in most cases, some things that are done to try to make an eBook simulate a pBook don't work. 2/3 of the vertical space of the screen just for the chapter header (and whatever goes with it) is too large and is not working. Plus, there is no way doing something like that works to make it feel like a pBook. I prefer to have the chapter header stuff be a lot smaller. I agree that there does need to be some space and how much depends on what's there for the chapter header. If you've got the ornaments and subheaders, then yes, you do need more space. So you need 2/3rdof the screen? No you don't. 1/4th of the screen is the most you should be using. To me, it doesn't feel like a pBook because it feels like someone did a poor job of ormatting the eBook. And if you are going to try to make your eBook feel like a pBook, then you need to have no paragraph spaces for the main text and you need indents that are not too large. I prefer indents of 1.2em. I know that a lot of pBooks have a widish margin, but that's because of the spine of the book. But, don't have any left/right margins in main text. Also, don't have any line height. Those are not needed. Most current Readers such as Kobo have options to set the left/right margins and line height. This way the user can set what he/she likes. And don't embed the font used in the pBook version as it usually won't work because it's too light for an eInk screen and some Readers won't be able to override it. Kindles don't default to showing embedded fonts and most eBooks with embedded fonts, the fonts will not ever be seen by most people reading with a Kindle.

SO you have to know what works and what doesn't. The problem is that a lot of eBooks designed to simulate a pBook fail. You have a large amount of space around a chapter header like the pBook and then you have a fail when you have paragraph spaces. You have a fail if there are no indents. You have a fail when you have section breaks with just space and in some cases, you have asterisks where the section breaks fall at the top or bottom of the page in the pBook version. That's a fail because it looks stupid. It cannot be guaranteed to fall at the bottom or top of the screen.

So the solution is to treat the eBook as an eBook. Figure out formatting that works as an eBook and stick with it. Formatting that works is not too much chapter heading blank space used, no paragraph spaces, no line height, no left/right margins, no embedded fonts unless there's a really good reason like for special characters. Indents should not too large. Main text should be left at the default size and that includes offset text which in some pBooks is made smaller then the main text.

Can you give a sample you how you plan on formatting? I would like to have a look.

[Turtle91]

Let me summarize what Jon said:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I find that in most cases, some things that are done to try to make an eBook simulate a pBook don't work. ...{OPINION}

SO you have to know what works and what doesn't. ...{OPINION}... It cannot be guaranteed to fall at the bottom or top of the screen.

So the solution is to treat the eBook as an eBook. Figure out formatting that works ...{OPINION}

Can you give a sample you how you plan on formatting? I would like to have a look.

Here's the important part: "Figure out formatting that works" and that you like. Then run with it!

[JSWolf]

You have to figure out formatting that works and if you plan to sell an eBook, then you have to figure out what works for most people.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You have to figure out formatting that works and if you plan to sell an eBook, then you have to figure out what works for most people.

Unfortunately that usually breaks down to K.I.S.S.
AS YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK ACROSS MANY DEVICES AND BRANDS (and those all do their version of the 'correct' way ) Don't even count on the Brand.
My K4nt won't handle a drop cap font that works fine on the Kindle Android app, Windows Kindle app, Kindle previewer and even in Calibre.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by theducks

Unfortunately that usually breaks down to K.I.S.S.
AS YOU ARE TRYING TO WORK ACROSS MANY DEVICES AND BRANDS (and those all do their version of the 'correct' way ) Don't even count on the Brand.
My K4nt won't handle a drop cap font that works fine on the Kindle Android app, Windows Kindle app, Kindle previewer and even in Calibre.

I simply want to add--yes, it's true that "emulating" print layout doesn't work (well) on most smaller devices. But you know what? (Here goes ALL my credibility with Jon, lol!)--I love it. I infinitely prefer a creative approach that makes me feel like I'm reading a print book.

For example, the "Cthulhu Casebooks [of Sherlock Holmes]" which were put out by Titan. Totally crazy eBook formatting--the book designer decided to make each chapter head an entire "page/screen" by itself. And it really works, for those 3 books. When you go to chapter X, you get an entire page of drawings, (of Chthulu's tentacles, presumably) with a cool font for the chapter number and name/title. It resizes nicely on a lot of devices; the person who made the eBook should have done a better job for Kindles, BUT, I still like it. So there!

And I like space around chapter heads, too. Neener-neener-neener. So what? If done wrong, yes, it's unhappy-making, but when done right, it works on all devices and nobody's member or girls are going to fall off, just because there's a bit of whitespace above the chapter head.

What doesn't work is when David Dilettante decides to "create" his chapter heads and does that with a whack-load of "enter-enter-enter" or a font size that's 50% larger than it ought to be and it's set in px so that you can't change it.

We've all looked at and seen and loved books that make good use of whitespace and design for eternity. It's not that easy to just switch one's brain off, on what you expect to see to something ELSE that is already different, and think, "oh, well, it doesn't matter if the chapter head is boring and bland and all that, it's JUST an eBook." Phooey on that.

Sure, I am extremely careful with clients' books. We don't do anything too "out there" unless we have an adventurous client. We did a book with illos, above/below each Part Page announcement (e.g., "part 1," etc.) in a book for a client, like the Chthulu Casebooks, and he loves it. I'm waiting to see what the public reception of it is, assuming the thing sells. But...you can hardly blame ebook creators/designers/formatters for wanting to inject a bit of elegance or TLC or creativity or something into their work for their clients. When done right, it can really make a book stand out, in a world of many millions of poorly-done books and eBooks.

Hitch

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You have to figure out formatting that works and if you plan to sell an eBook, then you have to figure out what works for most people.

If you use that argument, then the question is, why are many big publishers doing things that you say don't work? Like emulating print style chapter headers.

They are in the business of selling and if the buyers hate the formatting, they have recourse via Amazon to both complain AND return the ebook. Less recourse via other vendors, but in the U.S., Amazon has most of the market. Any reputable publisher IS going to pay attention if large percentages of their ebook sales are returned.

But if that isn't happening, the possibility remains that many people LIKE what the publishers are doing. Or at least aren't finding it objectionable enough to act on.

What real harm occurs when a publisher allows more chapter heading space?









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[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Sure, I am extremely careful with clients' books. We don't do anything too "out there" unless we have an adventurous client. We did a book with illos, above/below each Part Page announcement (e.g., "part 1," etc.) in a book for a client, like the Chthulu Casebooks, and he loves it. I'm waiting to see what the public reception of it is, assuming the thing sells. But...you can hardly blame ebook creators/designers/formatters for wanting to inject a bit of elegance or TLC or creativity or something into their work for their clients. When done right, it can really make a book stand out, in a world of many millions of poorly-done books and eBooks.



Hitch

I can't be sure I'm doing everything right, I'm just trying to learn, I'm not a writer, so no plans to sell a darn thing, but I do want to do something for the MR library.

I'm trying to consider things like small screens and even accessibility, as much as I can manage.

But like you, I love it when things are not strictly cookie cutter. And I feel that when it comes to making ebooks from vintage books, preserving some of the look creates that nostalgia that makes people *love* their books. Heaven knows if I'll achieve it with my Dad's books, but I'm giving it a go. So thanks for posting!

I started the first in the series, and it has the BOOK title on the first chapter in addition to chapter number and chapter title. Yep, uses more space. Yep, not strictly necessary. But can't imagine not formatting it exactly this way, because it would make anyone who loved the series smile in recognition. And if someone smiles seeing an ebook, that too can be a definition of 'working,' I think.










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[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by graycyn

If you use that argument, then the question is, why are many big publishers doing things that you say don't work? Like emulating print style chapter headers.

They are in the business of selling and if the buyers hate the formatting, they have recourse via Amazon to both complain AND return the ebook. Less recourse via other vendors, but in the U.S., Amazon has most of the market. Any reputable publisher IS going to pay attention if large percentages of their ebook sales are returned.

But if that isn't happening, the possibility remains that many people LIKE what the publishers are doing. Or at least aren't finding it objectionable enough to act on.

What real harm occurs when a publisher allows more chapter heading space?

Because they are lazy. They take the electronic file used for the pBook and make an eBook out of it. They don't bother to look at it properly to see what formatting needs fixing. They just use what they have.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I simply want to add--yes, it's true that "emulating" print layout doesn't work (well) on most smaller devices. But you know what? (Here goes ALL my credibility with Jon, lol!)--I love it. I infinitely prefer a creative approach that makes me feel like I'm reading a print book.

But when fonts are embedded that are too light for eInk, I can't feel like I'm reading an pBook. When there are paragraph spaces, I cannot feel I am reading a pBook. When the font is too small (not using the default size), I cannot feel I am reading a pBook. When there is a line-height used, I cannot feel I am reading a pBook. When the indents are too large, I cannot feel I am reading a pBook. When there are paragraph spaces and no indents, I cannot feel I am reading a pBook.

For example, the "Cthulhu Casebooks [of Sherlock Holmes]" which were put out by Titan. Totally crazy eBook formatting--the book designer decided to make each chapter head an entire "page/screen" by itself. And it really works, for those 3 books. When you go to chapter X, you get an entire page of drawings, (of Chthulu's tentacles, presumably) with a cool font for the chapter number and name/title. It resizes nicely on a lot of devices; the person who made the eBook should have done a better job for Kindles, BUT, I still like it. So there!

I did download one of these eBook from the library and there are some good and bad points to it. The chapter header is definitely different. On my laptop with Calibre's Viewer, there is some space left at the bottom of the screen. On my iPhone, there's not enough room at the bottom of the screen. So in this case, it's best to do it the way it's done. It does work. The font used for the chapter titles works. But, the font used for the body text doesn't work. It's just way too light. It's Times New Roman and that is a terrible font to embed. That is a big fail.

And I like space around chapter heads, too. Neener-neener-neener. So what? If done wrong, yes, it's unhappy-making, but when done right, it works on all devices and nobody's member or girls are going to fall off, just because there's a bit of whitespace above the chapter head.

Some space maybe, but not some silly amount of space. ANd don't do it with a % as that changes depending on what device is being used. The space needs to be consistent. So use em and not % and don't go more then 2em. Don't use 1/2 the screen for the chapter header.

What doesn't work is when David Dilettante decides to "create" his chapter heads and does that with a whack-load of "enter-enter-enter" or a font size that's 50% larger than it ought to be and it's set in px so that you can't change it.

Or the chapter header is too small.

We've all looked at and seen and loved books that make good use of whitespace and design for eternity. It's not that easy to just switch one's brain off, on what you expect to see to something ELSE that is already different, and think, "oh, well, it doesn't matter if the chapter head is boring and bland and all that, it's JUST an eBook." Phooey on that.

What amount of space around the chapter header do you prefer?

Sure, I am extremely careful with clients' books. We don't do anything too "out there" unless we have an adventurous client. We did a book with illos, above/below each Part Page announcement (e.g., "part 1," etc.) in a book for a client, like the Chthulu Casebooks, and he loves it. I'm waiting to see what the public reception of it is, assuming the thing sells. But...you can hardly blame ebook creators/designers/formatters for wanting to inject a bit of elegance or TLC or creativity or something into their work for their clients. When done right, it can really make a book stand out, in a world of many millions of poorly-done books and eBooks.

Yes, be creative. Don't be boring. A lot of blank space in the chapter header is boring. Cthulhu Casebooks [of Sherlock Holmes] chapter headers works because they are creative in a good way. But to have "[too much space]Chapter 1[too much space]start of the chapter text" is boring and for me, it doesn't work. Either be creative or don't have so much excess space.

For example, with the amount of space wasted in chapter headers in a Jame Patterson book, you can get an extra screen of text then you would if a reasonable amount of space for the chapter header was used. Because there are over 100 chapters, you can get way too many extra screens.