Dealing with Amazon can be a right pain

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Timboli

It isn't about the money, never has been really. It is about the principle, their need to fix something that is wrong, an error, that is impacting me, their good customer.

Me, I am big on Justice and Fair Play.

And I am against Bureaucracy when it becomes too big and inflexible.

When you engage in an agreement with a company, which is what I did when I bought my Kindles from Amazon, there is a certain expectation, above the unreadable regulations etc that no-one reads. That expectation is Fair Play and Honesty, plus Respect and Ethical behavior. I believe in enforcing that rigorously.

So are you saying because no one reads the unreadable regulations then they shouldn't apply?

I am for free speech myself. Now if a company doesn't want to sell me something I will look elsewhere if I can.

Have you emailed Jeff yet? Try that and let us know if it works.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

So are you saying because no one reads the unreadable regulations then they shouldn't apply?

Not at all, don't put words in my mouth.
I was saying there are also considerations beyond the written word. In addition to, if you like.

I am for free speech myself. Now if a company doesn't want to sell me something I will look elsewhere if I can.

I am no different.

Here is a word of advice, early in our relationship. If you want me to respond to your future replies. Talk politely to me, and don't insult or insinuate, as you did earlier. Also, if I make the effort to write all the detail down, please read it before responding, especially with accusations. I ever so hate having to repeat myself. It makes me narky and aggressive ... quite unnatural for a Sloth.

And obviously they don't like it here when I get like that.

Now have a good day!

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Not at all, don't put words in my mouth.
I was saying there are also considerations beyond the written word. In addition to, if you like.


I am no different.

Here is a word of advice, early in our relationship. If you want me to respond to your future replies. Talk politely to me, and don't insult or insinuate, as you did earlier. Also, if I make the effort to write all the detail down, please read it before responding, especially with accusations. I ever so hate having to repeat myself. It makes me narky and aggressive.

And obviously they don't like it here when I get like that.

Now have a good day!

Well I am not sure I would call this a relationship.
I did mis-interpret how you got the books and I am sorry about that.
When have I ever insulted you?
I am not the one that called someone else's post dog balls.
I have never accused you of anything either.

I don't understand one thing, you said you didn't buy 3 books but 3 segments and that you bought them months ago. Did you know they were segments? And if you knew there was a fourth part coming why didn't you wait to buy them to make sure you could get all of them?

Like I said, been burned by too many authors not completing what they started.

Oh and just so you know, I don't like segmented books.

So truce.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Timboli

I purchased each part as it came out, but never saw the release of the fourth part until recently, while browsing Wilson's Amazon Page.

When I clicked on the ebook, it took me to the usual ebook web page, but no purchase option was available, instead it said - This title is not currently available for purchase.

Can you be gifted the last installment?

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Let me state once and for all, that Kindle World doesn't appear to have anything to do with my situation. None of the actual facts add up to that in any kind of manner.

I bought nearly 100 of them, all of which as far as I know, still show a purchase button when I go to their web pages. Certainly all the ones I have checked thus far, including the first three parts by Wilson Harp. I have even gone to newer Kindle World ebooks and they show a purchase button too.

Amazon have made an error or allowed one to happen without fixing it.

So whether I should feel entitled or not, is really a mote point. Errors need fixing.

I did not ideally want the refund, but they called my bluff, which wasn't a bluff.

The books in question are Kindle Worlds Books. Kindle Worlds Books are supposed to be restricted to the United States. Such restrictions are usually intended to operate on the basis of your physical location. You are not located in the United States. Therefore you should not have been able to purchase these books. I think Amazon did indeed make an error, and you are unable to purchase the 4th book because of the actions they are taking to fix it. That you still see a purchase button for other Kindle Worlds titles may well indicate simply that their fix is still in progress and not yet operating properly.

The other logical though I think less likely alternative seems to be that Amazon is taking a very lenient approach to limiting the KW "pilot" to the US and is simply letting anyone with a US account purchase these titles. In this case your situation may indeed be an error. Or perhaps a result of a change in such a policy.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Seeing as you brought it up.

I was wondering if those of you who are happy to remove DRM have ever considered how easy it would be for Amazon etc to embed an ID in every ebook file that gets sent to you, at the moment it is sent? An ID that is related to you only. It could easily fail to be detected and removed when the DRM is removed.

If they did such, then they could track the movement of the ebook, whenever the device it resides on connects back to their store, during a Sync etc.

What you are referring to is known as "watermarking" or even "social drm". This is not a problem for most people, who simply wish to have a future proof backup, read their book on some other device or perhaps some other purpose like enabling text to speech or copying.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Timboli

The fact that DRM removal that was created more than a year ago, still works after a few Kindle updates, proves they aren't currently actively trying to stop it. They've given up, doesn't have the ring of truth to me though.

The DRM removal script used for Kindle books first appeared in 2008, so it's been out for over 8 years now. It's not true to say that Amazon have given up. They have changed the DRM scheme on different devices several times since then, in a variety of ways. The tools usually get updated in a few days/weeks/months to handle the new tweaks to the DRM scheme.

It's certainly possible that Amazon could embed identifying info in the books, or at least in the metadata.

And if they have done that it's also possible that Amazon could examine the books on your device to see whether they are (a) DRM-free books originally sold with DRM and (b) sold to the owner of the device they are on.

But I can't see why they'd bother, really.

[HarryT]

I can appreciate that this is irksome, but in all honesty I don't think there are any grounds for requesting a refund. All sorts of series don't get completed for any number of reasons, and not having access to the final part of a series doesn't change the content of the first three parts. I'm not unsympathetic to the situation, but in such a circumstance if having the complete series is high on your priority list, the sensible thing to do is to wait until the complete series is released before buying any of it.

I dislike "serial" releases for this reason. There is never a guarantee that the story will be finished and/or accessible to you. It's a classic case of "caveat emptor".

[pwalker8]

I can sympathize as well. There is a particular author whose books I won't purchase because he left a series that I was reading unfinished. Have you tried contacting the author directly? Perhaps you can work something out with him if Amazon can't or won't sell it to you.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I can sympathize as well. There is a particular author whose books I won't purchase because he left a series that I was reading unfinished.

David Gerrold, by any chance?

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by darryl

What you are referring to is known as "watermarking" or even "social drm". This is not a problem for most people, who simply wish to have a future proof backup, read their book on some other device or perhaps some other purpose like enabling text to speech or copying.

And I don't have a problem with anyone doing that ... may even do it myself for exactly the same reasons.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I can appreciate that this is irksome, but in all honesty I don't think there are any grounds for requesting a refund. All sorts of series don't get completed for any number of reasons, and not having access to the final part of a series doesn't change the content of the first three parts.

So you don't think that because the 4th part actually does exist, that having done Amazon and the Author a favor (giving them money etc for the first 3 parts), that they don't have any obligation to me, to let me buy the 4th part?
Remembering of course, that these aren't stand-alone novels in a series, but parts of a much shorter story, that is incomplete without the last part.

I'm not unsympathetic to the situation, but in such a circumstance if having the complete series is high on your priority list, the sensible thing to do is to wait until the complete series is released before buying any of it.

Generally I wouldn't argue with that.

I dislike "serial" releases for this reason. There is never a guarantee that the story will be finished and/or accessible to you. It's a classic case of "caveat emptor".

I usually don't get my ebooks until the last part is written, but it depends on the price. Which for many of these items, goes up and down. Best to buy at a good price, while you can.

I am also one of those people who collects most of the novels in a series before I start to read them ... but that's another story.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Timboli

So you don't think that because the 4th part actually does exist, that having done Amazon and the Author a favor (giving them money etc for the first 3 parts), that they don't have any obligation to me, to let me buy the 4th part?

One might consider it a moral obligation, but a legal obligation? I really doubt it. Distribution terms for books can change at any time and for a multitude of reasons. There's never a legal right to be able to buy a book.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

The DRM removal script used for Kindle books first appeared in 2008, so it's been out for over 8 years now. It's not true to say that Amazon have given up. They have changed the DRM scheme on different devices several times since then, in a variety of ways. The tools usually get updated in a few days/weeks/months to handle the new tweaks to the DRM scheme.

I was taking a leap, when I said over a year, because I know a variant that still works quite fine by all accounts, and it hasn't been updated in at least that amount of time, possibly double that time or more, and we have seen at least a handful of Amazon updates during the period I specified.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by darryl

The other logical though I think less likely alternative seems to be that Amazon is taking a very lenient approach to limiting the KW "pilot" to the US and is simply letting anyone with a US account purchase these titles. In this case your situation may indeed be an error. Or perhaps a result of a change in such a policy.

I'm not sure that Kindle Worlds is an issue at all, because of the huge number I was able to buy and can still buy, plus newer ones available to me after the release date of the 4th Part I cannot buy.

So it doesn't seem likely that anything has changed, but I guess time will tell ... or who knows, maybe my situation will preempt change one way or another.