Screwed by Tor again...

[slayda]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Oh...

Wait, hold the phone... This is something I didn't know.

I am subscribing to the updates for all of the books in the bundle and I eventually that months bundle will include 4 complete books?

That's a minimum of 4 complete books. There are often as many as 8 in a month's bundle.

[Liviu_5]

Originally Posted by VillageReader

I'm not certain who the marketing genius was behind this, but in a typical year I read over 150 books - or one every 2-1/5 days. Since I usually have multiple books going, the average time may be longer, but still around 12 days.

For me 'parts' each month won't cut it. Even a 'slow' read rarely takes a month.

The Webscription parts are just pre-publication parts. The full e-book is available about 2 weeks before print - and of course if you are willing to pay more, you can get the full e-arc for 15$ 4-5 months in advance.

For example 1635-Dreeson is December, so in late September/early October you will have half available if you buy the December Webscription. But you can read 25% now for free and pay 15$ to read the full book about 4 months before release. Not a bad deal compared to buying print arcs on Ebay.

Incidentally this one is a must for everyone enjoying the superb alt-hist series by E. Flint and collaborators since it ties all the internal threads to date. No battles or big picture international politics though, but a lot of fun. I read it in an evening despite being quite long...

[mbagsh55]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

Which brings me full circle: TOR is off of my reading list, and the free e-book promotion has left a bitter taste in my mouth. What an unfortunate way to launch their site, like offering crumbs to a starving man.

Hi Taylor (an others),
I just wanted to add my two cents and say that I really appreciated the free books from TOR. I was disappointed that for example I could not easily purchase an eBook follow-up to some of the stories, but I paid nothing for the eBooks and thoroughly enjoyed a number of them.

For me it is really no different to a public library stocking part one of a series and choosing not to stock future releases if the first book was unpopular.

I agree entirely that is seems a curious promotion, since they are not promoting an eBook store, but I remain grateful for the free reads and hold no animosity to TOR.

~Marcus

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by slayda

That's a minimum of 4 complete books. There are often as many as 8 in a month's bundle.

But if there are, then at least four of them are likely to be books that have been released previously, so if (like me) you buy every month's bundle, you're only getting four new books.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But if there are, then at least four of them are likely to be books that have been released previously, so if (like me) you buy every month's bundle, you're only getting four new books.

That's probably why I don't buy every month's bundle. I will usually look at the bundle & if there are at least 3 that I want to read, I'll buy the bundle & feel like I got the others free. That way I'm introduced to new authors that I might not otherwise read. Whether they are new or not does not influence my decisions. Sometimes the 3+ books I want in a bundle may be old favorites that I don't yet have as ebooks. If there are only one or two in a bundle that I think I will read, I buy them individually.

[Taylor514ce]

Originally Posted by mbagsh55

Hi Taylor (an others),
I just wanted to add my two cents and say that I really appreciated the free books from TOR. I was disappointed that for example I could not easily purchase an eBook follow-up to some of the stories, but I paid nothing for the eBooks and thoroughly enjoyed a number of them.

For me it is really no different to a public library stocking part one of a series and choosing not to stock future releases if the first book was unpopular.

I agree entirely that is seems a curious promotion, since they are not promoting an eBook store, but I remain grateful for the free reads and hold no animosity to TOR.

~Marcus

Hi, Marcus.

Allow me to attempt a calmer description of the problem, as I perceive it. The core of PNH's and his friends' mockery of me seems to be they think I'm complaining about "free books", or as he put it, "free ice cream". Well, of course he has the right to laugh at his own jokes, but that's not the issue at all. Why? Because these weren't "free books".

They were:

1. A promotion to a site with vague purpose, which many, many people (not just supremely silly moi) thought would be a place for the "rest" of the books. Not so. Footnote: and Tor has never apologized for that misunderstanding, in fact, Torie and PNH on the tor.com site react in flabbergasted ridicule that anyone could think that was the case, and after all, how could anyone complain about "free books"! A circular, and demeaning, reaction.

2. Book 1 of X of a series. Some of these books ended abruptly. Where is book two? At your bookstore, in print editions - ok. Fine, but that isn't the expectation created by Tor. This was an e-book promotion, umm - a promotion featuring e-books.

3. Not truly "free". Books take time to read. A good book draws the reader in, intellectually and sometimes emotionally. Reading a book is an INVESTMENT, in the book, the plot, the characters, the author. That's what books are for. That's why we read. That's why SF fandom exists, and it's why Tor is in business. If you put time and thought and effort and emotion into a book, that book isn't free. I would expect Tor's Editor-in-Chief to understand this, rather than mock it.

So, when I read a "free" book that's part 1 of a series, and expect to find part 2 of that series on the site that promoted that book, and don't find it, is it really so shocking that I would be frustrated? I suggest that is the natural response, and it is profoundly disturbing to see that the Editor-in-Chief of TOR doesn't understand this.

Originally Posted by Patrick Nielson Hayden

Specifically, just to be clear: I think proclaiming yourself to have been "screwed" because we gave away some e-books...was silly. Indeed, when you first put up that post, I laughed out loud at it. Then I read it to some other people, who laughed at it too. How we laughed!

No doubt you are entirely sincere in feeling wronged by having been given an ebook. Hmm, checking...dum de dum...yep, this is still very silly of you.

For someone who claims to be part of "a bunch of skiffy true believers", this seems a shocking disconnect.

His other responses, that hey, Tor's business plans aren't really open for discussion, they have no obligation to reveal anything to anybody, and they've already said something is in the works, and that's all there is to it - well, they are well-taken. Fair enough. Not the answer we all wanted, but that's all the answer we're going to get. I can live with that.

[grimo1re]

I was happy with the free books too but it is a funny way of marketing if the other books in series aren't available as an e-book. The marketing of a full series by giving away the first would've worked on me. I don't feel *screwed* though, just a bit confused.

[Taylor514ce]

A matter of degree, then - but the underlying point is still valid. Even if posting that I felt "screwed by Tor" was excessive (and I'm willing to admit it was), discerning the basic point should still have been possible. Instead, we get the, "Hey! Look at this guy who thinks we cheated him out of something by giving away FREE E-BOOKS! Oh, har har har!" reaction. Ok - but I wasn't complaining about being given free e-books. Re-read, Mr. Editor.

Or, maybe I'm the only guy in the world who reacts this way. I also get mad when a great show ends with "see Part Two next week". I just spent an entire hour watching a "free" show (spent vs. free, get it?) expecting it to wrap up, and it ends NOW?

It's worse with books. It's worse with e-books, and the Part 2 isn't coming next week. It may not be coming at all. The people to ask aren't answering, and treat you like an idiot for asking.

Just me? Really?

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Taylor514ce

A matter of degree, then - but the underlying point is still valid. Even if posting that I felt "screwed by Tor" was excessive (and I'm willing to admit it was), discerning the basic point should still have been possible. Instead, we get the, "Hey! Look at this guy who thinks we cheated him out of something by giving away FREE E-BOOKS! Oh, har har har!" reaction.

Or, maybe I'm the only guy in the world who reacts this way. I also get mad when a great show ends with "see Part Two next week". I just spent an entire hour watching a "free" show (spent vs. free, get it?) expecting it to wrap up, and it ends NOW?

It's worse with books. It's worse with e-books, and the Part 2 isn't coming next week. It may not be coming at all. The people to ask aren't answering, and treat you like an idiot for asking.

Just me? Really?

I've got your back, Taylor!

You know, publishing is supposed to be a business. As such, the object is to make money! You use advertising to increase demand for a product. To make the most money, you must use your resources in the most efficent manner you can. So...

What the hell are you selling, TOR! How do you expect to make money off of your website? More sales of p-books? Advertising of non-related products? Duh! E-books are the up and coming new market for your wares - and you used e-books to advertise your forthcoming website. Marketing 101 would expect that you would be selling e-books at the new web site, because that's what you are advertising with your freeebies! To give a mundane example, I'm going to open a restaurant, and I give away free ice cream on a street corner to drum up excitement. So I open, and only sell hot dogs. Then I tell the customers who show up for the opening "what made you think I'd be selling ice cream?" A complete marketing disconnect, and a total waste of marketing dollars. The people who want hot dogs still don't know about your restaurant and the people who want ice cream feel left out at the opening.

Finally, sneering at your customer is really great way to lose your customer. Ask any retail business manager in the non-publishing world. And remember, customers pay your paycheck. Look up what happened to Judy-Lynn Del Rey's boss after he publicly sneered at her for landing the first Start Wars book....

[slayda]

I've been "watching the sky". Clear skies. Nothing moving!

Waiting, watching! Waiting, watching! Waiting, watching! Waiting, watching! Waiting, watching! Waiting, watching! ... Nothing!

[GeoffC]

Quote from the Tor.Com blog...

Tor parent company Macmillan is actively converting all titles to which we have digital rights. It really is just a matter of time before the majority of our library is available in e-book form.

The brief flap over the Baen deal seems to have convinced several years' worth of fannish commentators that there's some kind of dire drama going on behind the scenes where Tor and e-books are concerned. There really isn't. There are issues of workflow and rights, just as there are everywhere else. I think you'll see lots more e-books in lots more formats in the next few months.

[tlrowley]

I totally understand the "screwed" feeling, too, although I would have probably expressed it more gently.

I'm absolutely shocked, however, at the "official" response from Tor. The hostility expressed to current (or future) customers was readily apparent from Tori, and I truly couldn't believe that she was supported by others at Tor. There were much more gentle, accommodating ways to express her position and I'm surprised that someone in customer support(?) couldn't find a politer way to express herself.

[Nate the great]

She's not really customer support. But she is a public face of TOR. And frankly, she does not know how to be a forum moderator.

[Greg Anos]

The joys of a monopoly. You'll get what we want to give you, when we feel like giving to you, and you'll take it - see. That attitude seems to permeate all of corporate publishing (as opposed to small scale author/publishers, like Steve Jordan), even to their customer faces. Each copyright they control is a monopoly, and they don't have to care.....

[pshrynk]

You'll get nothing and like it!