Shades of 1984

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

IMHO you should have pulled the bundle entirely, and left it up to the retailer to Do The Right Thing (Amazon will). Then republished the remaining short story as a separate ebook instead of an updated version.

As it is, people who bought (with *actual money* ) an ebook will now find their book disappearing out from under them. Even on Amazon, trusting fools who enabled autoupdates will find their book is no longer the one they bought.

You might think "oh, no real harm done" becase after all they'd just be buying the full novel and the newly-free short, but... maybe not.

You haven't gained yourself any great benefits I can see, and you have undoubtedly left people confused and annoyed.

Don't change the product.

Well, Amazon does not allow me to pull a book and republish with a changed title if it is essentially the same book. While it's marginally possible to do that, it's usually done to hide bad reviews and talk about confusion. In addition, I didn't want to sell the single short story remaining for 99 cents. So I pulled it from Amazon entirely, which is somewhat the same thing you are suggesting.

I haven't had any complaints. Anyone who actually wants either of these short stories can find them online for free. They just cannot find them on Amazon any longer. I would have made the remaining story free on Amazon (confusion or not) but that isn't easily possible. And THAT indeed might be confusing.

I'm not at all claiming it was an ideal situation. I wouldn't have PURPOSELY done it that way. But it happened to work out this way and there's no point in crying over split milk on my end.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Perhaps from a fellow-author perspective it makes sense to say a book that originally sold at a $0.00 price point is less of a purchase, or morally less deserving to be one, than a book that sold for a higher price point (one which put money in the bank) -- but I consider it a totally warped perspective nonetheless.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. If someone is without the book (free or not) the problem is more likely to be because B&N no longer makes it downloadable. I agree that B&N and other retailers should continue to make the book available to those who purchased it (Free or otherwise). What I was trying to say is that if the author decided that FUTURE purchasers could only have book one or book one and two for free, that shouldn't be a problem. It's no different than changing the price from a sale.

But if a person bought it, the onus is on the RETAILER to make sure it stays available for those who purchased it (because we, the authors, can't control that aspect).

I don't see the ethical problem with changing the book price for new purchasers. I do see an issue of confusion if the reviews talk about 3 books and there are only 2 books, but again, there are technical reasons for not just pulling a book and relisting under different titles. The problem is that we flat our aren't allowed to do that. And changing the title causes even more problems and confusion anyway.

Even Smashwords has a policy of not "publishing" the same book twice. There are multiple issues with doing so--and several authors decided to publish rather than update--because it gets them more visibility (front page of smashwords for x amount of time and so on).

[theducks]

I have paid good $ for books (paperback or e-book) from Baen.
Should the buyer be entitled to their money back, just because the book was later added to the Baen Free Library? I don't think so

What about those that paid a premium for an ARC? (I don't believe ARC's are ever updated) Should the be entitled to a free finished version

When did we shift the responsibility for protecting your purchases (outright or license) to the supply chain?


Note: I love Baen. These examples are not a rant against Baen

[LadyKate]

Somehow I think this thread strikes me as being about authors issuing a changed book with the same isbn (I assume you checked and it is the same isbn) as the original book.

The "automatically update" the version of the book you purchased is available for most ebook sellers such as b&n and amazon. It is not something I would recommend for exactly this reason.

It seems to me to be unethical for a publisher, book retailer, or author to reissue an omnibus with changes. To issue another omnibus with the different books is not the same!

The way updates are made to existing books it would be possible for a retailer to "update" your library with blank books lol.

[LadyKate]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Here's a real life author scenario. I'll use me, because it turns out, that is who I know most about. I wrote two short stories and offered them as a "package" in one purchase for 99 cents. Well, one of the stories had a lot of requests for a full novel. I never intended to write a full novel at the time I "sold" the short story. It was meant as a little short into one of my series and nothing more. Probably a year later, the current novel I was working on happened to fit that short story. That short story became the prologue.

When the Full Novel came out, I deleted the "short story" from the two-pack, made the remaining short free on outlets that allowed it and pulled it from the outlet that does not easily allow free stories. There was no nefarious deed intended. I have no idea if some feel it is unethical. As far as I'm concerned the "market" changed for that short story and there was no point in leaving what became the "prologue" up for sale.

Those who purchased it on Amazon can still access it, so far as I know. I have no idea what happens with B&N buyers. Those who purchased it on Kobo can still access their "old" copy. They probably can't buy the new copy since it's the same listing (It's free, but I'm guessing they can't download it as it probably shows as already purchased."

I did the best I could with a given situation when I finished writing a novel that happened to incorporate the short. I'm sure some will find it beyond the pale, but the technology today makes some things possible and I took advantage of that.

Why did you not make it a new book? Why re-release it with the same name as the short?

I never understand when authors do this. If I had read the short then missed the novel for quite a while I would be P.O.ed. A new title with the info that the short story is part of this new novel would be much better.

If I had read the short it would not preclude the desire to read the novel even though the short is now incorporated in it.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by LadyKate

Why did you not make it a new book? Why re-release it with the same name as the short?

I never understand when authors do this. If I had read the short then missed the novel for quite a while I would be P.O.ed. A new title with the info that the short story is part of this new novel would be much better.

If I had read the short it would not preclude the desire to read the novel even though the short is now incorporated in it.

We are specifically not allowed to put the same material in a "book" or short story with a new title. So while I had two short stories in there and all I did was move the one story to the new book, I am still not supposed to just change the title of the other short and "republish."

But yes. I agree, it was not a smart or clean thing to do. I did the best I could with the tools I have. It is not something I would recommend to an author. My only reason for posting to the OP was because I thought there was a chance the author actually HAD a reason he did what he did.

We also do not assign the ebook ISBNs. We CAN for a fee, but we usually do not issue them. This is the other reason the retailers do not want us changing titles for material that is generally the same story.

It's not a perfect solution, I agree. But I do think there are times when authors have to make a decision that is LEAST confusing to get a book out there. Changing the title of a book is probably the most confusing thing an author can do--and it would definitely result in some people buying the book twice (because you cannot change the title and have it be the same listing. That is not allowed).

[shalym]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

We are specifically not allowed to put the same material in a "book" or short story with a new title. So while I had two short stories in there and all I did was move the one story to the new book, I am still not supposed to just change the title of the other short and "republish."

But yes. I agree, it was not a smart or clean thing to do. I did the best I could with the tools I have. It is not something I would recommend to an author. My only reason for posting to the OP was because I thought there was a chance the author actually HAD a reason he did what he did.

We also do not assign the ebook ISBNs. We CAN for a fee, but we usually do not issue them. This is the other reason the retailers do not want us changing titles for material that is generally the same story.

It's not a perfect solution, I agree. But I do think there are times when authors have to make a decision that is LEAST confusing to get a book out there. Changing the title of a book is probably the most confusing thing an author can do--and it would definitely result in some people buying the book twice (because you cannot change the title and have it be the same listing. That is not allowed).

I guess I don't understand why you didn't just leave both of the stories in the original book? I've seen many many times when a short story collection would have a story in it which ended up becoming a part of a larger stand alone work, and the collection remains intact except for an added blurb on the cover to indicate that it includes a part of a larger book. Ender's Game is one example of this, along with a couple of other of Orson Scott Card's works--he is someone who is known for taking a short story and expanding it into a novel.

Shari

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by shalym

I guess I don't understand why you didn't just leave both of the stories in the original book? I've seen many many times when a short story collection would have a story in it which ended up becoming a part of a larger stand alone work, and the collection remains intact except for an added blurb on the cover to indicate that it includes a part of a larger book. Ender's Game is one example of this, along with a couple of other of Orson Scott Card's works--he is someone who is known for taking a short story and expanding it into a novel.

Shari

Yep, I've seen numerous short stories expanded into novels (generally to their detriment).

2001 came from the short story The Sentinental
Beggars in Spain by Nancy Kress was a short story which became a series of novels
etc.
etc.

[BearMountainBooks]

That was probably an option and I'm not sure I thought about it as an option. One of the things I kept running into when I asked readers about what to do was: If I start reading and I think I've read it, I probably will just stop and move on. So I know I was dealing with the issue of not wanting readers to 1. pay for the short story and think I did it as "teaser" to get them to buy the longer book and 2. I didn't want people to pick up the short story for free (because I had already decided that it needed to be free if there was going to be a book that was for purchase) and then sample the book and think they had read the book already.

I probably could have gone the route you suggest (and in hindsight maybe it was the best one) but I couldn't make the dual stories free on Amazon easily. They are making it harder and harder to go free. Even when the "price match" a kobo book, they don't necessarily leave it free. For example, right now they are price matching google play's price on Ghost Shadow--but they are not price matching ANY other google play price for any of my other books. I've played the game of getting people to "report a lower price" and they will SOMETIMES match that price, but they will also sometimes ignore that or send me an email telling me to price match.

So yes, that was a possibility. I'm not certain I gave that particular option enough thought, probably because I was more worried about readers viewing the short as a teaser (one reviewer who apparently paid for the duo thought they were teasers long before the book was even out).

I admit. I created a bit of a mess, but generally speaking it isn't causing huge harm to anyone. And it's possible the author in question by the OP also created a mess for reasons that aren't clear. But in general, most of us are not trying to confuse, rip-off or otherwise cause a problem Sometimes we are trying new things or beating a new path to the same door. There's some trial and error in this business, but in the name of improvement, sometimes we try new things! Dragons of Wendal was originally the short story Snitched, Snatched. I never intended to do a full book for that one either, but when I did, I left that for sale, but only because Snitched, Snatched contains a Spanish translation. No one has complained about that so far. Perhaps leaving Under Witch Ghost in the anthology would have been the smarter thing to do.

[LadyKate]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

We are specifically not allowed to put the same material in a "book" or short story with a new title. So while I had two short stories in there and all I did was move the one story to the new book, I am still not supposed to just change the title of the other short and "republish."

But yes. I agree, it was not a smart or clean thing to do. I did the best I could with the tools I have. It is not something I would recommend to an author. My only reason for posting to the OP was because I thought there was a chance the author actually HAD a reason he did what he did.

We also do not assign the ebook ISBNs. We CAN for a fee, but we usually do not issue them. This is the other reason the retailers do not want us changing titles for material that is generally the same story.

It's not a perfect solution, I agree. But I do think there are times when authors have to make a decision that is LEAST confusing to get a book out there. Changing the title of a book is probably the most confusing thing an author can do--and it would definitely result in some people buying the book twice (because you cannot change the title and have it be the same listing. That is not allowed).

Hummm, could you not publish the book under a new title with the short story as an included "prequel" extra even though it was in another book?

[odamizu]

@BearMountainBooks

I'm having difficulty following everything you did and why, and I sympathize that the circumstances and technology may have complicated things for you, but from a consumer point of view, if I had bought your short story bundle and had half of it disappear in an update, I would be annoyed at best, mad at worst, and I would be wary of buying another ebook by you lest half of it disappear again.

Also, while I might complain to the bookseller, I doubt I'd contact the author. So you would likely have lost me as a reader without ever hearing about it.

[BearMountainBooks]

Originally Posted by odamizu

@BearMountainBooks

I'm having difficulty following everything you did and why, and I sympathize that the circumstances and technology may have complicated things for you, but from a consumer point of view, if I had bought your short story bundle and had half of it disappear in an update, I would be annoyed at best, mad at worst, and I would be wary of buying another ebook by you lest half of it disappear again.

Also, while I might complain to the bookseller, I doubt I'd contact the author. So you would likely have lost me as a reader without ever hearing about it.

That will not happen to you in this case--it is no longer available at all on Amazon (other than if you bought it, it should remain in the cloud, etc). Kobo does not do active updates so in that case, I made it available as the other story only and changed the description and made it free. You won't get some weird update with one story suddenly missing.

I also made it available for free on Smashwords and in that case it appears on B&N as a different title/book for free also. The original is indeed gone and if B&N doesn't make it available for those who purchased it, I cannot control that.

And yes, I'm sure not everyone would contact an author over something odd or that they didn't like. Understood.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

Well, Amazon does not allow me to pull a book and republish unless I change the title and that is another whole can of worms.

Is this something new? Because I've seen time and again where an author or publisher has republished a book under the same title with a different ASIN while pulling the old one from active sale and it still being available to previous buyers.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

I'm not sure what you're saying here. If someone is without the book (free or not) the problem is more likely to be because B&N no longer makes it downloadable. I agree that B&N and other retailers should continue to make the book available to those who purchased it (Free or otherwise). What I was trying to say is that if the author decided that FUTURE purchasers could only have book one or book one and two for free, that shouldn't be a problem. It's no different than changing the price from a sale.

But if a person bought it, the onus is on the RETAILER to make sure it stays available for those who purchased it (because we, the authors, can't control that aspect).

I don't see the ethical problem with changing the book price for new purchasers. I do see an issue of confusion if the reviews talk about 3 books and there are only 2 books, but again, there are technical reasons for not just pulling a book and relisting under different titles. The problem is that we flat our aren't allowed to do that. And changing the title causes even more problems and confusion anyway.

Even Smashwords has a policy of not "publishing" the same book twice. There are multiple issues with doing so--and several authors decided to publish rather than update--because it gets them more visibility (front page of smashwords for x amount of time and so on).

Happy to know you didn't change the product after all.

I have no problem with changing the price -- changing the product is Bad, because for example Amazon might silently update it.

What is the problem with changing the title? I don't see it as changing anything -- it is offering a new product (while pulling an old one) -- naturally it will have a different title.

Books 1 & 2 of ____ vs The Complete Trilogy -- those are different products and should reflect as much -- and not leave it to the retailer to accidentally update peoples' books.

Updating a book is MEANT for fixing spelling/formatting errors, not pulling switcharoos and changing the product. If I select manually to update a book from http://amzn.com/myk, I expect to get a book that has been edited for typos (code or text), I would be completely blindsided by having stories from an omnibus simply disappear.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by LadyKate

Somehow I think this thread strikes me as being about authors issuing a changed book with the same isbn (I assume you checked and it is the same isbn) as the original book.

The "automatically update" the version of the book you purchased is available for most ebook sellers such as b&n and amazon. It is not something I would recommend for exactly this reason.

It seems to me to be unethical for a publisher, book retailer, or author to reissue an omnibus with changes. To issue another omnibus with the different books is not the same!

The way updates are made to existing books it would be possible for a retailer to "update" your library with blank books lol.

This^^

Originally Posted by odamizu

@BearMountainBooks

I'm having difficulty following everything you did and why, and I sympathize that the circumstances and technology may have complicated things for you, but from a consumer point of view, if I had bought your short story bundle and had half of it disappear in an update, I would be annoyed at best, mad at worst, and I would be wary of buying another ebook by you lest half of it disappear again.

Also, while I might complain to the bookseller, I doubt I'd contact the author. So you would likely have lost me as a reader without ever hearing about it.

And this^^