Is all fantasy derivative of Tolkien? How to prove it isn't? - Page 4

Xanthe · 10-06-2014, 06:00 PM

~clearing throat~

~looking around~

~standing up~

"Um....I like various fantasy genres, but whenever I've tried Tolkien I've found his writing style to be totally boring, and I don't think the hobbits are cute or interesting. I even tried watching the movies, but after the second one, I didn't care what happened to any of the characters. I don't even know if the bug-eyed hobbit ever managed to get rid of that ring."

"If he's influenced any of the fantasy writers I've read, I wouldn't be able to recognize it if you beat me with a stick."

~sitting down~

~standing up quickly~

"Thank you."

~sitting down again~

DiapDealer · 10-06-2014, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conan50

Robert E. Howard is your guy if you are looking for a "Father" of Heroic Fantasy.

That's Sword and Sorcery.

crich70 · 10-06-2014, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conan50

Tolkien is great, he helped jump start the whole modern Fantasy genre. But he "borrowed" and was influenced by the Norse Eddas, Beowulf, the Kalevala, William Morris, and others. Gandalf, Frodo, about half the names of his dwarves came from the Eddas. William Morris first used the name "Mirkwood". Many modern fantasy authors "borrow" from Tolkien, but he first "borrowed" from the best.
Robert E. Howard is your guy if you are looking for a "Father" of Heroic Fantasy.
edit added the word "Heroic".

And Mr. Howard wrote mostly for the pulps when he created characters like Conan, Kull, and Solomon Kane. Which isn't to say there is anything wrong with that. Just that there is a difference between writing a novel and writing a series of short stories for magazines (IMO). When Mr. Howard created his characters for the pulps he was likely just trying to create something to keep food on the table for the next week or so and at the same time make sure the readers would want to come back for another story in the future, and magazines back then I'm sure were fairly cheap (from our stand point) compared to the cost of a book as well.

conan50 · 10-06-2014, 06:26 PM

Don't underestimate the influence of Howard on Fantasy, even though he wrote for pulps originally, in the 1960s-80s his stories were published by major publishers like Ace and Baen. His influence has been felt even by bestselling authors like Stephen King.

conan50 · 10-06-2014, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That's Sword and Sorcery.

Sword & Sorcery and Heroic Fantasy are interchangeable descriptions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_sorcery

fjtorres · 10-06-2014, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conan50

Sword & Sorcery and Heroic Fantasy are interchangeable descriptions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword_and_sorcery

Yup.
But if you go with sword and sorcery you absolutely have to talk Fritz Leiber and Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser.

He added humor to the mix (on occassion).

conan50 · 10-06-2014, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Yup.
But if you go with sword and sorcery you absolutely have to talk Fritz Leiber and Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser.

He added humor to the mix (on occassion).

I like Fritz Leiber :-)
Also a Sword & Planet fan, and that is a different animal :-)

fjtorres · 10-06-2014, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conan50

I like Fritz Leiber :-)
Also a Sword & Planet fan, and that is a different animal :-)

Lin Carter!
Jandar of Callisto!

Fritz Leiber got me with LEAN TIMES IN LANHKMAR. Nothing like giving a fantasy realm a real economy and a depression to reveal the inner selves of the characters.

crich70 · 10-06-2014, 07:49 PM

And how about the Thieves World books? There is a wide variety of fantasy stories there. A shared world with different author's writing stories about their own characters and those of others.

conan50 · 10-06-2014, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Lin Carter!
Jandar of Callisto!

Fritz Leiber got me with LEAN TIMES IN LANHKMAR. Nothing like giving a fantasy realm a real economy and a depression to reveal the inner selves of the characters.

Oh yeah :-) One of my favorite S&P next to Burroughs' John Carter books.

crich70 · 10-06-2014, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conan50

Don't underestimate the influence of Howard on Fantasy, even though he wrote for pulps originally, in the 1960s-80s his stories were published by major publishers like Ace and Baen. His influence has been felt even by bestselling authors like Stephen King.

I'm not trying to underestimate his contribution, I'm just saying that he had to develop a style that got the story across while getting the story down on paper and out the door while ensuring that the reader was satisfied with the story and didn't feel cheated. Of course novelists have to do the same thing but they have a bit more room as far as time to get the work done since they don't have a magazine deadline to meet.

Pulpmeister · 10-06-2014, 09:21 PM

R A Lafferty: his fantasy has no resemblance to Tolkein in the slightest. Lafferty was predominantly a short story writer, but wrote a series of novels such as Fourth Mansions, and The Devil is Dead trilogy (which includes a sub-trilogy Melchisedech).

To get the flavour of his short stories, try Nine Hundred Grandmothers.

Geralt · 10-07-2014, 02:08 AM

Since nobody mentioned it I will.

Poul Anderson - Three hearts and three lions

Spoiler:

Published 1 year before LOTR.

One man against dark powers, trolls, fairy etc...

WillAdams · 10-07-2014, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geralt

Since nobody mentioned it I will.

Poul Anderson - Three hearts and three lions...
Published 1 year before LOTR.

in 1961, 24 years _after_ _The Hobbit_, and Tolkien was asked for a sequel almost immediately, and it took far longer than a single year to write.

Poul Anderson was very influential, but not on Tolkien. Read up on Michael Moorcock's finding inspiration for Elric in _The Broken Sword_.

Other things to look up (some have been mentioned already in this thread):

- 1896 - The Well at the World's End by William Morris
- 1905 - The Gods of Pegāna by Lord Dunsany
- 1919 - The Moon Pool by A. Merritt
- 1919 - Jurgen, A Comedy of Justice by James Branch Cabell
- 1920 - A Voyage to Arcturus by David Lindsay
- 1922 - The Worm Ouroboros by E.R. Eddison

Oddly, I'm not finding a good list of fantasy works listed chronologically by publication / authoring / copyright dates --- anyone know of one?

pdurrant · 10-07-2014, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waylander

I thought there was something wrong. I feel unworthy of calling myself a fantasy fan now.

I've fixed the thread title for you.

10-07-2014, 02:08 AM	#58
Geralt Witcher Posts: 933 Karma: 7321117 Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Swamp. Slaying Drowners. Device: Kindle PW2	Since nobody mentioned it I will. Poul Anderson - Three hearts and three lions Spoiler: Published 1 year before LOTR. One man against dark powers, trolls, fairy etc... Last edited by Geralt; 10-07-2014 at 02:12 AM.

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10-06-2014, 06:00 PM	#46
Xanthe Plan B Is Now In Force Posts: 1,894 Karma: 8086979 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Surebleak Device: Aluratek,Sony 350/T1,Pandigital,eBM 911,Nook HD/HD+,Fire HDX 7/8.9,PW2	~clearing throat~ ~looking around~ ~standing up~ "Um....I like various fantasy genres, but whenever I've tried Tolkien I've found his writing style to be totally boring, and I don't think the hobbits are cute or interesting. I even tried watching the movies, but after the second one, I didn't care what happened to any of the characters. I don't even know if the bug-eyed hobbit ever managed to get rid of that ring." "If he's influenced any of the fantasy writers I've read, I wouldn't be able to recognize it if you beat me with a stick." ~sitting down~ ~standing up quickly~ "Thank you." ~sitting down again~

10-06-2014, 06:26 PM	#49
conan50 Fanatic Posts: 597 Karma: 14054112 Join Date: Jun 2014 Device: kindle	Don't underestimate the influence of Howard on Fantasy, even though he wrote for pulps originally, in the 1960s-80s his stories were published by major publishers like Ace and Baen. His influence has been felt even by bestselling authors like Stephen King.

10-06-2014, 07:49 PM	#54
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,310 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	And how about the Thieves World books? There is a wide variety of fantasy stories there. A shared world with different author's writing stories about their own characters and those of others.

10-06-2014, 09:21 PM	#57
Pulpmeister Wizard Posts: 2,825 Karma: 29145056 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Perth Western Australia Device: kindle	R A Lafferty: his fantasy has no resemblance to Tolkein in the slightest. Lafferty was predominantly a short story writer, but wrote a series of novels such as Fourth Mansions, and The Devil is Dead trilogy (which includes a sub-trilogy Melchisedech). To get the flavour of his short stories, try Nine Hundred Grandmothers.

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