Terms of Use prohibiting reselling of ebooks are legal German Court rules - Page 4

mandy314 · 09-05-2014, 04:09 AM

@DuckieTiger
That's the way I see it too.

Okay - my fault causing the confusion. Copying of digital content files (implicit when open the files for use or explicit when for example copying downloaded files to your kindle via USB) is legal of course as long as you are within the scope of the personal use allowed. Personal use is always a restricted one with copyrighted material. German copyright laws are very detailed on this one, a fair use copy (Privatkopie) for example is legal with DRM-free content.

The discussion gets a little bit complex with the question if re-selling of digital content always implies a "copying for a third party" (Vervielfältigung für Dritte). The court's decision hinges - party at least - on the assumption that this kind of copying is a technical necessity for re-selling. Copying of content (for a third party) is illegal in the realm of personal use according to copyright laws - so that's that.

Providers of digital content allowing re-selling would widen the scope of personal use - but the buyer would still breaking copyright laws when re-selling unless the providers would give up on copyright completely (allowing "Vervielfältigung für Dritte"). So in the end the court sees the clause of Term of Use prohibiting re-selling as declamatory, complementary to the legal situation and "good consumer advice". A Term Of Use allowing re-selling of digital content must be deemed illegal following this argumentation.

I'm no lawyer, and all my efforts on understanding the court's decision may be wasted. Seems all a little bit "kafkaesk" though.

CWatkinsNash · 09-06-2014, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandy314

Providers of digital content allowing re-selling would widen the scope of personal use - but the buyer would still breaking copyright laws when re-selling unless the providers would give up on copyright completely (allowing "Vervielfältigung für Dritte"). So in the end the court sees the clause of Term of Use prohibiting re-selling as declamatory, complementary to the legal situation and "good consumer advice". A Term Of Use allowing re-selling of digital content must be deemed illegal following this argumentation.

Bold mine.

I don't know what the copyright differences are in Germany, but in the US this really wouldn't make sense. When the copyright holder sells via a retailer, they are agreeing to allow their books to be licensed under the terms that a retailer uses. Provided that the retailer acquires the copyright holder's agreement to new terms when reselling is implemented (assuming they had an agreement in place prior), there would be nothing illegal at any point for any of them.

Copyright isn't all or nothing. The copyright holder has the right to give up all of their rights, some of their rights, or all of their rights for a limited time, etc. As a writer, photographer and musician, I am able to allow various uses of my work, in various contexts, while still maintaining any rights I don't expressly give up. It's all about contracts.

There have been ebooks sold with terms granting the purchaser very similar rights to that of a physical book. The terms spelled out the conditions under which the book may be resold, lent, etc, rather than prohibiting these actions. There's nothing illegal about it, for either party, because such a statement grants a limited right to copy for the purposes of taking these actions, provided any conditions are met.

Is copyright handled that differently in Germany that the copyright holder / licensor doesn't have the right to grant permission to resell to the consumer?

mandy314 · 09-07-2014, 07:09 AM

As I said, my reading of the court's decision could be wide off the mark - more likely than not.

But on a lighter note:

Of course

The World of Ideas. And in the 17th corner from the right, should be the 71th corner if you come from the other side, no corner at all if you look at it from the top and don't get me started on 'from below', there are letters, glyphs, words even. There is Literature.
- Sneeze -
Another place. Another day - one of those between Sunday morning and Sunday evening. And again the proverbial hits the fan at the Unseen University. Literature is frozen in time and space, literature enters the material world. There is the book.
- Sneeze -
New guilds emerge. The writers, the publishers, the booksellers. And all guilds build big big houses in the best part of the city. The publishers have space to spare. The Guild of the Blind, also known as the Guild of Legislators, Judges and Lawyers, which is quite a mouthful, move into the basement. In this house downstairs all the neatest regulations with all the details for the new thing are looked after - after some good meals upstairs.
- Sneeze -
Books are bought in spades. To be read or not to be read and to be used as doorstops of course.
All is well.
- Sneeze -
Will there be to many books? Will literature swamp the real world? Some fear. But books are sold on. New owners like their used books to read or not to read and to use as doorstops of course. How many doorstops do you need? Not much more than you have doors in your house most likely.
Still - all is well.
- Sneeze -
Another place. Another day - one ... oh shucks. And again the proverbial hits the fan at the Unseen University. A guy looking for toilet paper and an unlucky guy at that - didn't find any - comes across a new kind of imp. Completely magical, the imp is there and not there, it is one and many, completely unreal for those not believing in magic. Try to explain the imp to your great-great-great-parents and you will know about unreality. It/she/he/they perform/performs literature on special slates in various sizes, shapes and styles. There is the ebook.
- Sneeze -
The guilds' houses get an expansion or two. Members of the Guild of the Blind really have to work for their dinners upstairs to put all the unreal in really nifty sets of rules and regulations. What is the most real unreal known to mankind? Must be services - at the restaurant, at the doctor, at a public office - nothing magical but unreal for sure. The magical part is making of real money from selling the unreal they think. So the ebook service - imps performing 35/11 - is born.
- Sneeze -
Ebooks are bought for slates and in spades. Angels sitting on top of the sharp end of a pin - that's plenty. Not much in it when compared to at all the imps you can get on your slate. Human nature to have more literature in your pocket than you can read in your lifetime. And ebooks are bought in spades. To be read or not to be read.
Still - seems all is well.
- Sneeze -
Want to sell my ebook. First there is only one small voice, then there is a chorus of voices. Want to sell my ebook. Want to buy a new ebook to read or not to read and really need a new doorstop of course. At the guilds' houses there are great meetings of minds. And at last the Guild of the Blind sees it all and whatever: Ebooks can't be used as doorstops of course.
- Sneeze -
Must go and get my imp some medication.

Sil_liS · 09-08-2014, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

The question never was if reselling an ebook is legal or not. The question in this thread originally was if prohibiting the reselling of an ebook is legal in the terms of use. Sound almost the same, but it is not the same. Only because the terms of use don't prohibit reselling does not automatically mean reselling an ebook is legal. It may or may not be legal under other laws - e.g. copyright laws.

The question is whether reselling is legal. If it is legal, then there is no reason for the terms of use to take rights away from the consumers.

eschwartz · 09-08-2014, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The question is whether reselling is legal. If it is legal, then there is no reason for the terms of use to take rights away from the consumers.

... other than "because we wanna" ...

DuckieTigger · 09-08-2014, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

The question is whether reselling is legal. If it is legal, then there is no reason for the terms of use to take rights away from the consumers.

It is legal to resell your car if you own it. That does absolutely not mean that leasing you a car is illegal. Nor does it mean that you have the right to resell a leased car.

hidden.platypus · 09-19-2014, 10:36 AM

I feel like I stumbled into a communist hotbed.

Why oh why won't you guys think of the shareholders?

Do you have any idea how much it costs to berth and unberth a yacht?

Writings are easier to produce and distribute so it makes perfect sense that a book should cost as much, or more, than it did when we had to harvest papyrus, cut stalks, and hunt octopi.

I don't understand why people are confused. Yes it feels like a transaction, and an exchange of goods, but that's an illusion. What actually happened was you gave me your hard earned money to look at my thing. And if other people want to look at my thing then they also must pony up with the lucre.

Why are all of you looking at me in this manner?

The right to greater profit. That's right! I said it.

The right to greater profit is protected by the Constitution. Firmly protected!
It is the greatest of all rights. Supersedes all others. Especially your right to do what you want with something you own.

You have any idea how expensive it was to convince lawmakers to write words that turn a tangible thing into an intangible thing, yet tangible enough to have a strict definition with awesome penalties for violating it? You can't just pay one you know? You have to create this entire (can't call it cottage industry, skyscraper industry?) industry. And you have to get them to take up opposing points, and argue, so when it gets to the inevitable conclusion people are satisfied that there was debate. That's not cheap.

What it is, is right and lawful, and natural. Perfectly natural, that's what the people I pay to say that say. Just the immutable law of nature. Natural, the opposite of man-made. Natural just like constitutions.

What do you mean which constitution?

All the constitutions.

It's right there beside the part underneath where supreme beings get help from fragile creatures that can't help themselves but mysteriously, are somehow powerful enough to provide aid and assistance to omniscient, omnipotent ones.

So just a little sympathy eh? It's not easy being a shareholder.

Commies!

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
US Supreme Court rules: U.S. copyright owners may not stop imports and reselling	citac	News	4	05-30-2013 07:04 AM
Court rules that it’s not obviously illegal to sell used MP3s	wodin	News	27	02-14-2012 02:20 AM
iPad Reselling apps - legal or not?	mgmueller	Apple Devices	11	08-01-2010 04:27 PM
Supreme Court Rules Against Grokster	Bob Russell	Lounge	2	06-28-2005 01:16 AM

09-05-2014, 04:09 AM	#46
mandy314 Connoisseur Posts: 71 Karma: 200092 Join Date: Mar 2014 Device: kindle pw1	@DuckieTiger That's the way I see it too. Okay - my fault causing the confusion. Copying of digital content files (implicit when open the files for use or explicit when for example copying downloaded files to your kindle via USB) is legal of course as long as you are within the scope of the personal use allowed. Personal use is always a restricted one with copyrighted material. German copyright laws are very detailed on this one, a fair use copy (Privatkopie) for example is legal with DRM-free content. The discussion gets a little bit complex with the question if re-selling of digital content always implies a "copying for a third party" (Vervielfältigung für Dritte). The court's decision hinges - party at least - on the assumption that this kind of copying is a technical necessity for re-selling. Copying of content (for a third party) is illegal in the realm of personal use according to copyright laws - so that's that. Providers of digital content allowing re-selling would widen the scope of personal use - but the buyer would still breaking copyright laws when re-selling unless the providers would give up on copyright completely (allowing "Vervielfältigung für Dritte"). So in the end the court sees the clause of Term of Use prohibiting re-selling as declamatory, complementary to the legal situation and "good consumer advice". A Term Of Use allowing re-selling of digital content must be deemed illegal following this argumentation. I'm no lawyer, and all my efforts on understanding the court's decision may be wasted. Seems all a little bit "kafkaesk" though.

09-07-2014, 07:09 AM	#48
mandy314 Connoisseur Posts: 71 Karma: 200092 Join Date: Mar 2014 Device: kindle pw1	As I said, my reading of the court's decision could be wide off the mark - more likely than not. But on a lighter note: Of course The World of Ideas. And in the 17th corner from the right, should be the 71th corner if you come from the other side, no corner at all if you look at it from the top and don't get me started on 'from below', there are letters, glyphs, words even. There is Literature. - Sneeze - Another place. Another day - one of those between Sunday morning and Sunday evening. And again the proverbial hits the fan at the Unseen University. Literature is frozen in time and space, literature enters the material world. There is the book. - Sneeze - New guilds emerge. The writers, the publishers, the booksellers. And all guilds build big big houses in the best part of the city. The publishers have space to spare. The Guild of the Blind, also known as the Guild of Legislators, Judges and Lawyers, which is quite a mouthful, move into the basement. In this house downstairs all the neatest regulations with all the details for the new thing are looked after - after some good meals upstairs. - Sneeze - Books are bought in spades. To be read or not to be read and to be used as doorstops of course. All is well. - Sneeze - Will there be to many books? Will literature swamp the real world? Some fear. But books are sold on. New owners like their used books to read or not to read and to use as doorstops of course. How many doorstops do you need? Not much more than you have doors in your house most likely. Still - all is well. - Sneeze - Another place. Another day - one ... oh shucks. And again the proverbial hits the fan at the Unseen University. A guy looking for toilet paper and an unlucky guy at that - didn't find any - comes across a new kind of imp. Completely magical, the imp is there and not there, it is one and many, completely unreal for those not believing in magic. Try to explain the imp to your great-great-great-parents and you will know about unreality. It/she/he/they perform/performs literature on special slates in various sizes, shapes and styles. There is the ebook. - Sneeze - The guilds' houses get an expansion or two. Members of the Guild of the Blind really have to work for their dinners upstairs to put all the unreal in really nifty sets of rules and regulations. What is the most real unreal known to mankind? Must be services - at the restaurant, at the doctor, at a public office - nothing magical but unreal for sure. The magical part is making of real money from selling the unreal they think. So the ebook service - imps performing 35/11 - is born. - Sneeze - Ebooks are bought for slates and in spades. Angels sitting on top of the sharp end of a pin - that's plenty. Not much in it when compared to at all the imps you can get on your slate. Human nature to have more literature in your pocket than you can read in your lifetime. And ebooks are bought in spades. To be read or not to be read. Still - seems all is well. - Sneeze - Want to sell my ebook. First there is only one small voice, then there is a chorus of voices. Want to sell my ebook. Want to buy a new ebook to read or not to read and really need a new doorstop of course. At the guilds' houses there are great meetings of minds. And at last the Guild of the Blind sees it all and whatever: Ebooks can't be used as doorstops of course. - Sneeze - Must go and get my imp some medication.

09-19-2014, 10:36 AM	#52
hidden.platypus Connoisseur Posts: 89 Karma: 190508 Join Date: May 2014 Device: Android	I feel like I stumbled into a communist hotbed. Why oh why won't you guys think of the shareholders? Do you have any idea how much it costs to berth and unberth a yacht? Writings are easier to produce and distribute so it makes perfect sense that a book should cost as much, or more, than it did when we had to harvest papyrus, cut stalks, and hunt octopi. I don't understand why people are confused. Yes it feels like a transaction, and an exchange of goods, but that's an illusion. What actually happened was you gave me your hard earned money to look at my thing. And if other people want to look at my thing then they also must pony up with the lucre. Why are all of you looking at me in this manner? The right to greater profit. That's right! I said it. The right to greater profit is protected by the Constitution. Firmly protected! It is the greatest of all rights. Supersedes all others. Especially your right to do what you want with something you own. You have any idea how expensive it was to convince lawmakers to write words that turn a tangible thing into an intangible thing, yet tangible enough to have a strict definition with awesome penalties for violating it? You can't just pay one you know? You have to create this entire (can't call it cottage industry, skyscraper industry?) industry. And you have to get them to take up opposing points, and argue, so when it gets to the inevitable conclusion people are satisfied that there was debate. That's not cheap. What it is, is right and lawful, and natural. Perfectly natural, that's what the people I pay to say that say. Just the immutable law of nature. Natural, the opposite of man-made. Natural just like constitutions. What do you mean which constitution? All the constitutions. It's right there beside the part underneath where supreme beings get help from fragile creatures that can't help themselves but mysteriously, are somehow powerful enough to provide aid and assistance to omniscient, omnipotent ones. So just a little sympathy eh? It's not easy being a shareholder. Commies!

Advert

Advert