ADE adds blank pages?

[doubleshuffle]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Sorry to get off on a tear, but at the very least, let's try to avoid using PX for positioning in REFLOWABLE BOOKS.

I'm always surprised how many ebooks from major publishers have that kind of crap...

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Hitch

You know how often I see someone reading in landscape mode? NEVER. I mean it: NEVER.

My sister reads in landscape all the time. I have some custom-made epubs with comic strips, which I read in landscape too.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Just so I'm on the record:

Any possibility that we can all agree that we should NOT be using "px" to set vertical whitespace elements? Ems or % would really, really work better

Okay, you sold me (with your more detailed explanation re smaller devices further on in your reply). I'd been using ems before to create whitespace -- which I'd switched to from using empty paragraphs previous to that, but it was actually your recommendation, Hitch, to not do that which got me to switch to using ems -- but then I found that if I use ems, if a person increases the font size, then that only adds even more whitespace up at the top which only adds to the possibility of things like title pages overflowing onto the next page. And yes, I know I can't prevent that from happening all the time, but I don't have to exacerbate it happening either.

And so that's why I switched to px -- but I see your point, of course.

Pardon me for being slow, but how would I set the whitespace on my title page, or at the beginning of chapters, to be, say, 15% of the screen height? I'm thinking "padding-top:15%", but to me that would only serve to add 15% of the line height.

And all this, over the "blank page" (that doesn't exist), that's created, on the fly if/when the reader sizes the font in such a way, and uses font X instead of font y, and IF s/he has the iPad rotated to read in two-page/column mode...honestly, why all the drama?

Because contrary to the way you design books, Hitch, for the books I design, design matters. I'm not being critical of the design of your books -- in fact, I've never seen one before -- but rather I'm just going from what you say, both here in this reply as well as numerous times elsewhere in other threads.

Here's the thing: no matter how typographically perfect we want to make our work, they are NOT. PRINT. Books. Trying to force two pages to be on the left- and right-hand "pages" of a reader that may/mayn't be rotated in landscape, may/mayn't have font X, etc....What happens if you have a sight-impaired user who cranks up the font size, with that 42px "top-margin?" what happens THEN?

I'm fully aware that ebooks aren't print -- this is a lesson I learned two decades ago when I got into designing web pages. By your reasoning, all web pages would/should look pretty plain (if not lousy and boring), too, in an effort to make sure that they "work" correctly for everyone -- but that's a ridiculous argument. There's no reason that a website can't be functional and practical cross-platform and cross-browser, AND look beautiful as well, and while I'm still a beginner at this ebook publishing thing, it's immediately obvious to me that this is the case with ebooks, too.

I can see that that's not very practical if you're in this as a business, where clients want a reasonable product that works all-around, but don't want it to cost a fortune in time and money to have done, but just as we have livres d'artistes with print publishing, why can't we have e-livres d'artistes, too?

Just because you don't want to do it, doesn't mean I can't -- indeed, your repeatedly telling me that I shouldn't (if not that I "can't") only makes me want to do it even more.

We can be as artistic as we want, but we also need to accept what eBooks do well, and what they do NOT. A lot of what gets talked about (page break here, page-break before:, page-break after, etc.) doesn't work on all readers.

In what contexts does that page-break code "break", i.e. not work, not be recognized?

And is that an argument for going back to what I had before, i.e. using separate XML files for wherever I want those page breaks to appear?

When I was doing web design, especially in the 1990s when everything was all still so new, I would incorporate things that weren't always backwards-compatible, but everything is moving/changing so fast that I added them in anyway, knowing that it was only a matter of a few (if not one or two) short years before the technology would catch up, and only a matter of time beyond that where people would be dumping their old hardware in place of newer, better, faster computers.

Wouldn't it be safe/safer to assume that page-break will in time be quite universally recognized in virtually all devices? I mean all new/forthcoming devices, of course.

And the "extra page thing?" Again: it's only relevant when someone is reading in LANDSCAPE mode. You know how often I see someone reading in landscape mode? NEVER. I mean it: NEVER. It's time to embrace the GOOD, and learn to GRACEFULLY live with the other.

Hey, wait a sec, you can't have it both ways! You keep pooh-poohing some ideas here and there because "What about this scenario?!?!", well, I could probably also say "I never see a vision-impaired person reading an ebook with the font size set to GIANT, so why should I pay attention to your caveat about that possibility, Hitch?"

Well, because it's a possibility, of course -- and as far as viewing ebooks in landscape mode goes, I actually prefer to read them that way myself, and "NEVER" read them in portrait. In fact, I really miss the old "faux book" viewing mode in iBooks that they had before, I thought it was wonderful to read an ebook and have it "look like a book" (in that way). I can't understand why they got rid of that, for me (and others I've talked to about it) it was such a nice feature.

But I digress...

Sorry to get off on a tear, but at the very least, let's try to avoid using PX for positioning in REFLOWABLE BOOKS.

Gotcha on that one, and look forward to hearing your (or anyone's) response to my question about that, above.

It is interesting, though, this realization that I think I've made about how I see ebook design. I can understand how most of you out there view ebooks as being "books" converted to epub (or whatever) format, and all the possibilities -- and limitations -- that that brings in. For me, though, what I "see" with ebook design, as I'm designing them, is web pages converted to epub (or, perhaps, books converted to web pages, then converted to epubs).

I see a whoooooooole world (if not universe) of possibilities in there as far as creating something visually appealing -- if not, indeed, beautiful -- goes, and I only need to figure out which of those aspects from my two decades of website design and graphic design experience (and making beautiful sites that work cross-browser, cross-platform, etc.) I can bring into the somewhat more limited ebook publishing world.

Where you say "You can't", Hitch, I say "I can" -- and y'know what? I not only can, I do.

[JSWolf]

Even if you go with the ems equivalent of 42px, that's a heck of a lot of wasted screen space. I've seen a lot of eBooks using 10% or 14% for chapter titles for a heck of a lot of wasted space. Not only is the screen space wasted, it also looks awful. I [refer a small about of space at the top followed bu the chapter header and then a small amount of space and the chapter text.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Even if you go with the ems equivalent of 42px, that's a heck of a lot of wasted screen space. I've seen a lot of eBooks using 10% or 14% for chapter titles for a heck of a lot of wasted space. Not only is the screen space wasted, it also looks awful. I [refer a small about of space at the top followed bu the chapter header and then a small amount of space and the chapter text.

Here's a screenshot of one of my chapter titles with 42px padding above the title ("Solitude")? Too much wasted (and "ugly") space? Really?

[Psymon]

PS. to my last reply...

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Even if you go with the ems equivalent of 42px

Um, there's no such thing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Psymon

PS. to my last reply...



Um, there's no such thing.

It may not be 100% exact, but 42px would be 2.6em which is close enough.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Here's a screenshot of one of my chapter titles with 42px padding above the title ("Solitude")? Too much wasted (and "ugly") space? Really?

Yes, there is too much empty space above the word Solitude. And the space below the graphic could be lessened up some as well.

As for the word Solutiude itself, the green color won't look good if the background is black.

[Hitch]

Psymon:

Methinks, as you have never seen a book we've done, you have NO idea what you are talking about, vis-a-vis the quality, artisanal or otherwise, of our work. And frankly, you are coming rather close to making me rather angry about it. We do TONS of work, with fonts, etc., to make our books as beautiful as possible--work that would not meet, for example, with Wolfie's approval, trust me.

HOWEVER, that being said, I try to ensure that our books work across the board. that they work on EVERY PLATFORM. I don't have the luxury to indulge myself in artistic flights of fancy that will only work on one goddamned reader.

I've said what I had to say about px versus ems or %'s. Done here.

Hitch -- who has decided that this discussion is best left alone by her.

[odedta]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes, there is too much empty space above the word Solitude. And the space below the graphic could be lessened up some as well.

As for the word Solutiude itself, the green color won't look good if the background is black.

I disagree, i like the styling.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Methinks, as you have never seen a book we've done, you have NO idea what you are talking about, vis-a-vis the quality, artisanal or otherwise, of our work. And frankly, you are coming rather close to making me rather angry about it.

I don't know why anything I said should make you angry, Hitch, I didn't criticize the work you do, or the way you do it, because as I said (and not just you) I've never actually seen a book that you've published. I'd like to, actually, if you can point me to an example that you think is representative.

The only point that I made is that what you and I each do are rather different things. I've only published a couple of books so far, and am currently working on my third (although I've got one or two others half-done, but put aside for now), but I've spent months on each of them, putting in lots of time into the artistic side of things (and LOTS of other "behind-the-scenes" niceties that people don't see all that overtly, but do "experience" nevertheless). If I were to charge a client for the work that I do, it would cost them thousands and thousands of dollars to have their book published by me -- and I don't think people would be willing to pay that much.

That does NOT mean that your books look "lousy" or something -- on the contrary, I'm sure they look really good -- but we're talking about two entirely different things here. Every time I've been trying to do something particularly artistic, and want to get it to work cross-device/app, either I find a solution that works (and go with it) or discover that there isn't a solution and I don't, and yet you always seem to pipe in with your admonition that people shouldn't waste their time trying to do things that don't/won't work.

I don't get offended by your continually trying to burst my bubble, because I'm trying to incorporate something nifty (and get it to work all-around), so I don't know why you should be upset when all I do is reflect back that you're working in an area of epublishing that simply has different time/money constraints than what I'm trying to do.

HOWEVER, that being said, I try to ensure that our books work across the board. that they work on EVERY PLATFORM. I don't have the luxury to indulge myself in artistic flights of fancy that will only work on one goddamned reader.

And the things that I do do -- or at least end up doing -- do work on "every platform". I don't know why you have to demean everything that I post a query about here in these forums (re "artistic flights of fancy") in that way all the time.

Maybe I should be mad at you, Hitch, but I'm not. I just find it, well, weird. I didn't insult your work, and you're mad, and you continually do insult my work, and I'm not.

Go figure.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by odedta

I disagree, i like the styling.

Thanks, odedta, I naturally rather like it, too -- in fact, everyone else I've shown it to quite likes it as well (including other people who are contributing to this project, plus other friends who've worked for bigger print publishing firms, etc.).

It's okay, though, too, if it's not to JSWolf's tastes -- it is a matter of taste, after all, and we do all have our own preferences (and styles, both literally and figuratively).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by odedta

I disagree, i like the styling.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Psymon

Thanks, odedta, I naturally rather like it, too -- in fact, everyone else I've shown it to quite likes it as well (including other people who are contributing to this project, plus other friends who've worked for bigger print publishing firms, etc.).

It's okay, though, too, if it's not to JSWolf's tastes -- it is a matter of taste, after all, and we do all have our own preferences (and styles, both literally and figuratively).

One thing you have to remember, this is not PRINT. So your friends may be looking at it from the perspective of print. I'm looking at it from the perspective of it being an eBook. If it was print, it wouldn't work as you'd then have white with a green that doesn't work with a white background. And for that matter, since most people would be reading it (when using a tablet) with a white background, then it still doesn't work. If you are using color, you have to pick colors that work with a white background.

[Psymon]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

One thing you have to remember, this is not PRINT. So your friends may be looking at it from the perspective of print. I'm looking at it from the perspective of it being an eBook. If it was print, it wouldn't work as you'd then have white with a green that doesn't work with a white background. And for that matter, since most people would be reading it (when using a tablet) with a white background, then it still doesn't work. If you are using color, you have to pick colors that work with a white background.

I'm using greens and browns in my headings, and in my ornaments, too, because this is a collection of the writings of Thoreau. I don't know if you're familiar with his stuff, but it's largely very nature-oriented, and I wanted to give it all a sort of "woodsy" kinda look.

Here's a couple of screenshots of the same page spread as before, one with a white background and one black. You seemed concerned that the green headings wouldn't look okay in the latter, but I think it's just fine -- it does occur to me, though, that I should change my ornaments from JPEGs into transparent GIF or PNG format.

Funny, re that latter issue, I don't think I ever tested any of my previous books with a black background, and should probably check the ornaments, etc. that I've used in those, too. I have a few changes/updates I had to make anyway as a result of things I've learned more recently, so I'll just have to add that to the ever-growing list.