Getting depressed - Page 4

Argel · 05-11-2008, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the file formats for yourself. Your carrying on saying that the formats are different equally "doesn't make it so".

And mice and men share 97.5% of the same DNA but few mice can drive a car - no more can you open a protected Mobi file on a Kindle without making changes to it. Format is as format does, as Bob pointed out.

HarryT · 05-11-2008, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

And mice and men share 97.5% of the same DNA but few mice can drive a car - no more can you open a protected Mobi file on a Kindle without making changes to it. Format is as format does, as Bob pointed out.

The reason you can't open it is because the Kindle device PID isn't present in the Mobi file. That does not mean that the files are in a "different format", which is what you are claiming. If I buy a Mobi book and you try to read it on your Mobipocket device, you won't be able to, for precisely the same reason. Doesn't mean that it's a different file format; it just means that it's not encoded for your device.

Argel · 05-11-2008, 10:35 AM

Oh my God, this is terrible. One of the angels just fell off the head of the pin - we have to stop before any more get hurt.

wallcraft · 05-11-2008, 01:08 PM

Copyright has generally been seen as a licence between the author/publisher and the reader. When the copyright holder issues a MOBI file authorized for the Kindle's PID, both of these parties agree that the ebook can be read on the Kindle. The party that disagrees is Amazon, but that clearly isn't an ebook copyright issue but instead an attempt to turn on its head the legal tradition that a purchaser can do whatever they want with the stuff they buy.

It is strong evidence for the legality of Igor's script that Amazon has not issued a take down notice for the software. What Amazon has done is prevent ebooks wholesaled by MobiPocket from accepting the Kindle PID. This is arguably violating the rights of publishers, but no publisher has any incentive to sue Amazon.

Argel · 05-11-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallcraft

Copyright has generally been seen as a licence between the author/publisher and the reader... an attempt to turn on its head the legal tradition that a purchaser can do whatever they want with the stuff they buy.

Errr... your argument deconstructs slightly. An item under licence can only be used according to the terms of the licence. Purchase is a different concept, involving the surrender of rights by the seller.

But if you are right then all the publishers have to do is enforce their agreement with Amazon or decline to issue books in Mobi format. Given that ebooks are such a small part of the market, it would cost them very little and would put Amazon out of that market.

I'm genuinely interested in the implication of your post that Amazon do not have separate agreements with publishers for Kindle. Does this mean that when best-sellers appear for $15-$20 in Mobi and $10 for Kindle, this is just Amazon taking the hit, not a separate contract?

tompe · 05-11-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at the file formats for yourself. Your carrying on saying that the formats are different equally "doesn't make it so".

Take any DRM-protected Kindle file. Rename it to ".prc" or ".mobi" and load it into MobiPocket Reader. What happens?

The results should be proof enough for anyone that it's a Mobi file.

The important point is that because they have full control over the format and the update of the reading software they can change it. Also there is nothing that says that a kindle file will display correctly in a MobiPocket reader. Why should they keep the bad limitations of the MobiPocket format when they have full control over all readers?

wallcraft · 05-11-2008, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

I'm genuinely interested in the implication of your post that Amazon do not have separate agreements with publishers for Kindle. Does this mean that when best-sellers appear for $15-$20 in Mobi and $10 for Kindle, this is just Amazon taking the hit, not a separate contract?

Not all Kindle ebooks are sold under MobiPocket contracts. However, under MobiPocket's standard agreement with publishers, Amazon can also sell the ebook for the Kindle on the same terms (35% of the "Digital List Price" going to the publisher). Amazon is taking a hit but it has no wholesaler in the loop (it is the wholesaler), also $9.99/0.35 = $28.54 and the average list price of a new ebook is probably less than $28.54.

Argel · 07-12-2008, 02:47 AM

Well after all that, I've ordered a Cybook.

I was originally inclined to wait for a Kindlle but in the end I decided that if Amazon want to treat me like a second-class customer because I live outside the US, then I don't feel any great need to wait for them to change their minds. In fact, as a result, I've reduced my (very considerable) purchases of all kinds from Amazon only to those where there's no alternative source.

If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi.

<-- feigned innocence

GeoffC · 07-12-2008, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

Well after all that, I've ordered a Cybook.

You won't regret it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi.

<-- feigned innocence

No comment (good luck)...

JSWolf · 07-12-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi.

<-- feigned innocence

I'll give you the answer in one word...

ConvertLIT

Argel · 07-12-2008, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'll give you the answer in one word...

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. I did say 'feigned' innocence.

zelda_pinwheel · 07-12-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. I did say 'feigned' innocence.

GeoffC · 07-12-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

Shhhhhhhhhhhh. I did say 'feigned' innocence.

Sorry, you said "what" ?

fainted in horror?

G.
(There are no innocents here)...

RickyMaveety · 07-12-2008, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argel

OK, OK, I give in. Thanks for all the replies, though I think that many of you have a very different attitude to the buying and owning of books. My idea of the bare essentials would be the complete contents of the Bodleian Library (for starters).

I think I’m going to have to fall into the arms of Bezos, because it seems to me inevitable that he is going to win and, as a result, that is the only place where I’m going to be able to get anything close to all the books I want, when I want them. I say that with a certain heaviness of heart because I do mistrust Amazon’s motives in the long term.

It’s for that very reason that I won’t be buying any protected work in other formats, including Mobi. I can’t see that Amazon will allow loopholes in uploading to continue once the Kindle is established as market leader. Given that the Millennium Act provides for fines of $500,000 and five years in prison for circumventing DRM, I am amazed at the optimism of people who are cheerfully doing just that and then putting the files onto a device that is in constant radio contact with a company which relies on DRM to protect its bottom line. Good luck with that.

In any case, in stark financial terms, from the titles I’ve been looking at, the difference in price between Kindle editions and others is significant, and not just for best-sellers. I will even save money over my current paper-based buying.

And so, with grim resignation I have to say ‘Give me the contract Mr Bezos, I’m ready to sign over my soul. What’s that? I can’t buy the Kindle in the UK and you can’t tell me if and when I might be able to?’

Now I'm really depressed.

FX: Sound of sobbing fades into the distance....

Argel

Constant contact?? Nooooooo. Amazon has no earthly idea of what I keep on my Kindle. For one thing, most of my content is stored on my SD card, which is removable. And, I generally keep the Whispernet off. If I were really paranoid about Amazon snooping on my content, I would simply remove the SD card before turning on Whispernet.

Although, I see you bought a Cybook. So, it's really a moot point.

GeoffC · 07-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Whispernet, strange name for the sssshhhh-channel...

07-12-2008, 02:47 AM	#53
Argel Opinionated [but right] Posts: 281 Karma: 1412 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: UK Device: Cybook Gen3, PRS 505, Kindle Int, Oasis, Paperwhite, Scribe	Taking the plunge Well after all that, I've ordered a Cybook. I was originally inclined to wait for a Kindlle but in the end I decided that if Amazon want to treat me like a second-class customer because I live outside the US, then I don't feel any great need to wait for them to change their minds. In fact, as a result, I've reduced my (very considerable) purchases of all kinds from Amazon only to those where there's no alternative source. If only there were a way to buy ebooks in a format that doesn't provide Amazon with income and then reformat them to work with Mobi. <-- feigned innocence

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05-11-2008, 10:35 AM	#48
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05-11-2008, 01:08 PM	#49
wallcraft reader Posts: 6,977 Karma: 5183568 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Device: Kindle 3, Kobo Glo HD	Copyright has generally been seen as a licence between the author/publisher and the reader. When the copyright holder issues a MOBI file authorized for the Kindle's PID, both of these parties agree that the ebook can be read on the Kindle. The party that disagrees is Amazon, but that clearly isn't an ebook copyright issue but instead an attempt to turn on its head the legal tradition that a purchaser can do whatever they want with the stuff they buy. It is strong evidence for the legality of Igor's script that Amazon has not issued a take down notice for the software. What Amazon has done is prevent ebooks wholesaled by MobiPocket from accepting the Kindle PID. This is arguably violating the rights of publishers, but no publisher has any incentive to sue Amazon.

07-12-2008, 10:09 AM	#60
GeoffC Chocolate Grasshopper ... Posts: 27,599 Karma: 20821184 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Scotland Device: Muse HD , Cybook Gen3 , Pocketbook 302 (Black) , Nexus 10: wife has PW	Whispernet, strange name for the sssshhhh-channel...

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