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Old 01-16-2014, 08:42 AM   #46
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Quote:
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The publisher decides whether the books Kobo sells have DRM or not. Tor books I have bought from Kobo are all DRM-free, both the epub versions downloaded from the website and the kepub version downloaded via my Kobo device.
Interesting. If this is true, then the issue isn't because of ADE not handling EPUB3 files, because ADE isn't needed for books without DRM, and Lynx Lynx stated that the book she experienced the issue with was a DRM free book from O'Reilly.

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Old 01-16-2014, 08:57 AM   #47
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Grrrrr, I had a nice reply typed and then the session times out on me! < shakes fists at forum software in general >

Anyway. Short version:
I've searched on O'Reilly, Tor, and Baen, and for the results I have seen, it does report back as "DRM Free".
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:58 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shalym View Post
Interesting. If this is true, then the issue isn't because of ADE not handling EPUB3 files, because ADE isn't needed for books without DRM, and Lynx Lynx stated that the book she experienced the issue with was a DRM free book from O'Reilly.
From what I can see the kepub version of the book is stored on Kobo's servers, but when you download the epub version from the website it comes from the publisher's site (if DRM-free) or from Adobe's servers if it has DRM.

So the reason that some books are not available for download could just be that the publisher hasn't provided access to the book on their servers, or hasn't provided authorization to dowload from Adobe's servers.

Out of over 150 books I have purchased from Kobo there was just one that didn't have a website download option available immediately, and that was a new release book that I bought on the day of release. The website download option for that book appeared a few days later, but in the meantime I could still download the kepub version direct to my device.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shalym View Post
If it's an O'Reilly book, it shouldn't have DRM, so wouldn't need to be put through ADE. Or does the Kobo store add DRM even if the publisher doesn't require it? Do books from Baen and Tor sold through Kobo also have DRM added?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shalym View Post
and Lynx Lynx stated that the book she experienced the issue with was a DRM free book from O'Reilly.
No, she said the book was also published by O'Reilly without DRM. This edition of that book was not published by O'Reilly. In fact, it appeared to me that it was a self-published edition; I certainly didn't recognize the name of the publisher when I cracked open the OPF.

ETA: Details from Lynx-lynx's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
The book:
The Modern Web
Peter Gasston
ISBN:9781593274887
No Starch Press
"No Starch Press" is not O'Reilly.
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Old 01-16-2014, 02:14 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by GeoffR View Post
Out of over 150 books I have purchased from Kobo there was just one that didn't have a website download option available immediately, and that was a new release book that I bought on the day of release. The website download option for that book appeared a few days later, but in the meantime I could still download the kepub version direct to my device.
I've got two books in my Kobo library without download links, one of which I've owned for about a year. EPUB3 is the one common thread I've found.
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Old 01-18-2014, 04:38 PM   #51
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Re my Gasston book (as described in earlier posts) this book downloaded into Kobo Desktop as a DRM free kepub.

I extracted it from Kobo Desktop by adding the extension .epub
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:18 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx-lynx View Post
Re my Gasston book (as described in earlier posts) this book downloaded into Kobo Desktop as a DRM free kepub.

I extracted it from Kobo Desktop by adding the extension .epub
So the problem is not because of ADE not being able to process EPUB3.

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Old 01-20-2014, 05:38 PM   #53
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I may be able to make some solid progress on this over the weekend. I'm attending a convention with an author who also designs ebooks, and one of his self-published collections fits into this niche. Being able to look at both ends of the process should give us some insight into the middle.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:52 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
It kind of smells like there's some kind of issue between the Kobo store, ADEPT copy protection, and EPUB3 as a format, as if the Kobo site can only deliver its own non-ADEPT variety of DRM on EPUB3 books. At least I can download and read the book with the Kobo app...
Another Tuesday, another data point...

I just picked up Dirty Magic by Jaye Wells, ISBN 9780316228442. Since the last Orbit book I bought (the Tom Holt book released a couple of months ago, When It's a Jar) was an EPUB3 that gave me problems at Kobo and Diesel, I went to the Sony store for this one. That way, I could eliminate both the KEPUB and Nook oddities from the equation. The Sony store lists it as an Adobe DRM EPUB, and it did indeed download to my laptop through an ACSM file opened by ADE. A quick look at the OPF file verifies that yes, it's an EPUB3 book.

So, ADEPT and EPUB3 demonstrably get along fine. This is a Kobo-specific problem, not a universal tech issue.

This weekend, I should be able to get info on whether a certain self-pub book has DRM and which version of EPUB it was built as. If I'm correct that it's a DRM-free EPUB3, that should be the last nail in the coffin.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:04 AM   #55
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So, ADEPT and EPUB3 demonstrably get along fine. This is a Kobo-specific problem, not a universal tech issue.
I'd suspect that any epub3 ebook that makes heavy use of epub3 features is not going to look all that good when read using ADE or RMDSK based readers. I've also seen several epubs that were listed as epub2/3. Downloading one sample, the use of epub3 features was very limited and the creator was depending on epub2 software disregarding any epub3 features. It did include both a epub2 toc.ncx and an epub3 TOC.xhtml navigation files. Oddly, that sample's opf set the version for the 2/3 variant to 3.0.

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Old 01-22-2014, 02:29 AM   #56
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I'd suspect that any epub3 ebook that makes heavy use of epub3 features is not going to look all that good when read using ADE or RMDSK based readers.
That may be 100% true, but it's also completely beside the point. The problem is the lack of a download button, remember?

ETA: Also, since it appears that all new Orbit books are being built as EPUB3, this is not a problem that will simply go away. Kobo needs to fix their site, simple as that. Plus, the more big publishers/imprints start adopting EPUB3 (Orbit's part of Hachette), the more reason there is for readers to support it. Just saying "EPUB3 probably looks bad anyway" is completely unhelpful "sour grapes" thinking.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:08 PM   #57
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That may be 100% true, but it's also completely beside the point. The problem is the lack of a download button, remember?
What I was saying is that at this time, official support for ADEPT DRM does not include any epub3 compliant renderers. Without removing the DRM, 3rd party epub3 renderers are going to have issues opening an ADEPT DRM protected file. An unprotected epub3 file is a different kettle of fish.

To quote from a Datalogics' Kevin McNeill: "Datalogics will be implementing this technology within the Adobe Reader Mobile SDK (RMSDK) framework so that our customers can deliver EPUB3 capable apps that work within the Adobe DRM ecosystem."

At this time, the delivery date has not even changed to "Real Soon Now".

You might also want to check an O'Reilly item from Feb. 2013 about the "joy" of moving to epub3. "double the metadata and double the fun" describing their epub2/3 compatible ebooks building process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Bob View Post
ETA: Also, since it appears that all new Orbit books are being built as EPUB3, this is not a problem that will simply go away. Kobo needs to fix their site, simple as that. Plus, the more big publishers/imprints start adopting EPUB3 (Orbit's part of Hachette), the more reason there is for readers to support it. Just saying "EPUB3 probably looks bad anyway" is completely unhelpful "sour grapes" thinking.
What I am saying is that an epub3 file making use of epub3's extended capabilities is not going to look good on an epub2 renderer. Yes, you can limit the use of epub3 capabilities but that removes most of the reasons for moving to epub3. This comment applies to non-DRMed publications. Given that no epub3 renderers currently support Adobe ADEPT DRM, opening an Adobe DRM protected publication is not an option.

For the heck of it, I purchased and downloaded two ADEPT DRM protected epub3 ebooks. Removing the DRM and examining the contents showed that other than the addition of the toc.xhtml navigation document and changing the version in the opf file to 3.0, the use of epub3's extended features was nonexistent. ADE/RMDSK displayed them in an acceptable fashion.

I then compared that to opening a sample epub3 book making use of fixed layout, text direction, Javascript, embedded WOFF fonts, audio, etc. It did not include the toc.ncx for optional epub2 compatibility and so the book lacked a table of contents when opened using ADE/RMDSK. On an Aura HD, renaming it to .kepub.epub to force use of the ACCESS renderer, the book looked pretty good though for some strange reason, the audio portion didn't play. OTOH, on my iPad, everything seemed to work without needing to rename the file.

I am curious as to how you managed to condense my "I'd suspect that any epub3 ebook that makes heavy use of epub3 features is not going to look all that good when read using ADE or RMDSK based readers" to the "EPUB3 probably looks bad anyway" you enclosed in quotes. My comment is not "sour grapes" rather being, in my opinion, a demonstrable fact.

Regards,
David
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:28 PM   #58
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What I was saying is that at this time, official support for ADEPT DRM does not include any epub3 compliant renderers.
Again, that's completely beside the point. I'm complaining about a problem with Kobo's website, not debating the merits of EPUB3 or advocating its adoption. EPUB3 is only relevant in this thread in that it seems to be the root of the Kobo website bug.

I'm not disagreeing with your points. I'm simply noting that this thread is not the place for that discussion.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:50 PM   #59
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Again, that's completely beside the point. I'm complaining about a problem with Kobo's website, not debating the merits of EPUB3 or advocating its adoption. EPUB3 is only relevant in this thread in that it seems to be the root of the Kobo website bug.

I'm not disagreeing with your points. I'm simply noting that this thread is not the place for that discussion.
We seem to disagree as to whether this is a bug. A decision not to support downloads that could easily not work with most reader software is, to me, not a bug. If you download the epub3 ebook as a .kepub.epub and use the ACCESS renderer to open the file, the publication should render properly. If you download it as an .epub and try opening it with ADE, an RMDSK-based renderer or other epub2 renderer, the experience may not considered acceptable by many.
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Old 01-22-2014, 03:04 PM   #60
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I've searched on O'Reilly, Tor, and Baen, and for the results I have seen, it does report back as "DRM Free".
While O'Reilly seems to be supplying epub2/3 files from their site, I seem to remember reading that the files sent to other retailers were epub2 only. That was a few months back and that decision may have been revisited.

As for Baen, they are still supplying epub2 files but at this time, it does not appear that Kobo is distributing any Baen ebooks. For example, searching on the Grantville Gazette shows Smashwords edition not Baen editions.

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