WHSMith's temporarily shuts down ebook site

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

The heart of the matter from what I understand that started this is not the usual "gasp, there's erotica, where do we draw the line." The books that caused the problem contained clear, illegal material or instructions/tips for how to commit certain crimes.

So I take it that all books including descriptions of murders and violent robbery will now also be removed? Especially ones in which the villains get away without punishment.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

So I take it that all books including descriptions of murders and violent robbery will now also be removed? Especially ones in which the villains get away without punishment.

Give it time, the Daily Mail will get around to those sooner or later. They did the same thing with video tapes in the 1980s, started off with Nazi torture and snuff, then moved on to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Just don't suggest the Daily Mail should be regulated though, because that would be censorship.

[Josieb1]

Originally Posted by Crusader

I don't think this is an overreaction, rather the result of an extremely lax screening process for self-pubbed titles which has reached critical mass. Kobo had to remove everything so they can effectively sift through the books and remove those that are in violation. Any lesser action on their part would've been seen and widely proclaimed as 'doing nothing' by the media.

I read a genre which luckily has a lot of independent publishers, I don't have to buy my books from any main online ebook seller, including Amazon, Kobo, B&N etc, the authors also get a higher percentage per book when I buy from their publishers. Even the self published books I can get from AllRomance.

[soulfuldog]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

So I take it that all books including descriptions of murders and violent robbery will now also be removed? Especially ones in which the villains get away without punishment.

Sorry but BearMountainBooks posted some further info on what kinds of content is the issue here, these should have never been allowed on sale in the first place, and to compare it to murder/violent robbery is like comparing chalk and cheese.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by l_macd

Sorry but BearMountainBooks posted some further info on what kinds of content is the issue here, these should have never been allowed on sale in the first place, and to compare it to murder/violent robbery is like comparing chalk and cheese.

I think pdurrant has raised a valid point. BearMountainBooks said:

Originally Posted by BearMountainBooks

The books that caused the problem contained clear, illegal material or instructions/tips for how to commit certain crimes.

I've read plenty of thrillers that include detailed descriptions of how characters pick locks, or turn everyday objects into improvised weapons. They aren't how-to manuals, but they could certainly be described as containing clear instructions/tips for how to commit certain crimes.

I thought the problem books were extreme erotica books, ones that possibly contravened the Obscene Publications Acts.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by l_macd

Sorry but BearMountainBooks posted some further info on what kinds of content is the issue here, these should have never been allowed on sale in the first place, and to compare it to murder/violent robbery is like comparing chalk and cheese.

You're right that I missed one bit of BearMountainBooks post: "I don't know the extent of it but one list mentioned pictures inside the books that were of potentially underaged children, as well as other illegal material."

I do agree that books containing pornographic images of children are illegal and should not be available.

If such books were available, I can understand the outrage. But I haven't seen any such reports myself in the coverage of this issue.

[EDIT: Had another look. I can't find any reference to the books containing actual child pornography images. If anyone has a link to an article where such an allegation is made, I'd be interested to see it.]

[HarryT]

Nobody's been prosecuted in the UK under the Obscene Publication Act for purely textual material for something like 30 years, so that's a bit of a red herring. The stores are taking down material because it violates their terms of service, and is bad for business, not because it's illegal.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Nobody's been prosecuted in the UK under the Obscene Publication Act for purely textual material for something like 30 years, so that's a bit of a red herring. The stores are taking down material because it violates their terms of service, and is bad for business, not because it's illegal.

And because the size of that business in actual coin doesn't amount to much in the first place.
(If it were significant money at stake, they might be singing a different tune.)

I ran a quickie back-of-the envelope calculation that suggests WH Smith (total) indie ebook net revenue might (barely) hit six figures. Not the kind of money to go to war for.

[Crusader]

Kobo is suddenly being made out to be the BIG BAD in a typical overreaction by the internet at large. There are even petitions doing the rounds to stop them from censoring people.

The best analogy (if overly dramatic) I can come up with is a retail store who discovers some of the sodas they sell contain poison and then proceeds to stop sales of all sodas until they can remove the tainted ones.

[soulfuldog]

avantman42 it IS obscene content that is the issue, apologies I didn't even notice that comment at the end of BearMountainBooks post about "how to commit crimes", it was the bit pdurrant has quoted that I was meaning. Also fair enough pdurrant, there is no mention of young children as such.

I think there are probably two issues.

Firstly, some of the books shouldn't have been allowed on sale at all, as they are extremely offensive - as mentioned in original BBC news article linked to in the second post, "books depicting rape, incest and bestiality". Not necessarily that they are illegal, but as HarryT says they violate the terms of use of self-publishing on sites like Amazon & Kobo.

Some might be within certain guidelines, I don't know, say erotic but not featuring explicit depictions of rape, and they will sell them but they are not being clearly tagged as explicit content and are coming up in standard searches. This is the bit that is legally worrying for them, as they can be held legally accountable for allowing them to be sold without proper age verification.

This is probably why Kobo & WH Smith seem to have over-reacted, pulling a whole host of self-published books that have nothing to do with the issue, or shutting their website down altogether until they can get rid of the problem.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Crusader

Kobo is suddenly being made out to be the BIG BAD in a typical overreaction by the internet at large. There are even petitions doing the rounds to stop them from censoring people.

Well, they were the ones that started it.

You'd think they would have realized they're messing with people's livelihoods and that removing all indie titles on what amounts to a whim is not going to earn them much affection. Especially with the way hysterical ADS sufferers keep eternally bringing up "1984". The internet has eternal memory.

I guess now we'll be seeing Kobo Derangement Syndrome as a permanent online affliction alongside the epidemic Amazon Derangement Syndrome afflicting publishers and politicians.

[avantman42]

Originally Posted by l_macd

This is probably why Kobo & WH Smith seem to have over-reacted, pulling a whole host of self-published books that have nothing to do with the issue, or shutting their website down altogether until they can get rid of the problem.

To be honest, I can understand why they over-reacted. Wikipedia says that the Daily Mail has around 2 million readers. I believe this was a front page headline, accusing WHSmith of a "vile trade in online rape porn". Their business must be suffering from having the website offline, but it may well have suffered more if they hadn't taken drastic action.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Well, they were the ones that started it.

You'd think they would have realized they're messing with people's livelihoods and that removing all indie titles on what amounts to a whim is not going to earn them much affection. Especially with the way hysterical ADS sufferers keep eternally bringing up "1984". The internet has eternal memory.

I guess now we'll be seeing Kobo Derangement Syndrome as a permanent online affliction alongside the epidemic Amazon Derangement Syndrome afflicting publishers and politicians.

Yes, it wasn't as if Amazon were removing the same types of books and it was WH Smith that started it. Oh, and don't blame any of the self-pubbed authors for using atrociously explicit covers and not tagging their books correctly or willfully putting them into categories where they definitely don't belong. Kobo is the only guilty party here.

[soulfuldog]

Originally Posted by paola

so WHSmith has taken the entire book site down today - but I wonder why isn't Kobo being talked about at all?

Another day, another business is the focus - new article on the BBC news website today:

Kobo pulls self-published books after abuse row

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Crusader

Yes, it wasn't as if Amazon were removing the same types of books and it was WH Smith that started it. Oh, and don't blame any of the self-pubbed authors for using atrociously explicit covers and not tagging their books correctly or willfully putting them into categories where they definitely don't belong. Kobo is the only guilty party here.

Hey, at least now Kobo has their own haters club, just like Amazon and Apple and Microsoft.
They rank with the big boys!