Some serious issues with kepubs - Page 4

davidfor · 05-08-2013, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anak

I've explored it a bit further.
FYI: the pictures in the first post are taken from an original kobo kepub and epub with drm. The kepub has the mentioned issues.

So I decided to
1. remove the drm of the epub and renamed this epub to .kepub.epub to force it to use the Kobo renderer (NetFront BookReader engine) instead of Adobes RMSDK. THe result: the kepub is rendered exactly as the original epub. All centered text is displayed as such and the margin between each sentence is gone. The deliberate blank lines (like "scene breaks") are properly displayed.
2. but just renaming a epub to .kepub.epub may not unlock all special Kobo features (or make these work correctly) like annotations. But that is outside the scope of problems I mentioned in the first post.
But with just renaming the epub to kepub.epub I was able to change the font size, line spacing, margins (page margins left and right) and justification (default epub setting, left, justify). So the orginal epub was not "hard coded" that prevents to change any or some of these settings.

The overall conclusion is that not the NetFront BookReader engine causes the mentioned layout issues but the Kobo wrapper code.
The code below is from a different book as I can not download a preview of a book that I allready own.
The kobo.css is actually an empty css without any code. In some older book previews the kobo.css can contain code. That code is identical to inline css code added to every single xhtml file (<style type="text/css" id="kobostylehacks"> part) and making the kobo.css obsolete.

Apparently, my experience with the epub and kepub versions of books is different from yours. When I open a kepub and it has crappy formatting, the epub is usually as bad. The current book I am reading, used about four different font and sizes for the paragraphs, cycling through them. The started reading the kepub and swapped to the epub and found it was just as bad.

I have found this for most of the books I have bought from Kobo. But, there have been a few where one format was noticeably better. In most cases, possibly all but I don't remember, it was the epub that was better. I can think of two reasons for this. For older books, the kepub converter might have had problems and messed up the formatting. And Kobo have reconverted these.

But, I think the main reason is that the epub was supplied to Kobo had bad formatting. Kobo converted this to kepub and carried the bad formatting with it. Maybe with some extra errors due to GIGO. I think the next step in this is that the epub was fixed. Then it was supplied to Kobo again, but it wasn't sent through the kepub converter. I know that some books have been updated due to complaints made. Some have also been withdrawn because they were so bad, though I think those were missing text rather than just bad formatting.

The thing to do is to complain to Kobo about the book. They do fix them, but it can take time. If the epub version is good, that should make it faster.

Anak · 05-08-2013, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidfor

Apparently, my experience with the epub and kepub versions of books is different from yours. When I open a kepub and it has crappy formatting, the epub is usually as bad. The current book I am reading, used about four different font and sizes for the paragraphs, cycling through them. The started reading the kepub and swapped to the epub and found it was just as bad.

I have found this for most of the books I have bought from Kobo. But, there have been a few where one format was noticeably better. In most cases, possibly all but I don't remember, it was the epub that was better. I can think of two reasons for this. For older books, the kepub converter might have had problems and messed up the formatting. And Kobo have reconverted these.

But, I think the main reason is that the epub was supplied to Kobo had bad formatting. Kobo converted this to kepub and carried the bad formatting with it. Maybe with some extra errors due to GIGO. I think the next step in this is that the epub was fixed. Then it was supplied to Kobo again, but it wasn't sent through the kepub converter. I know that some books have been updated due to complaints made. Some have also been withdrawn because they were so bad, though I think those were missing text rather than just bad formatting.

The thing to do is to complain to Kobo about the book. They do fix them, but it can take time. If the epub version is good, that should make it faster.

I agree with you that if a source epub provided by a publisher is poorly formatted, the kepub version is just as bad. And I don't expect Kobo to fix this for every single wrongly formatted epub. The publisher should supply a well formatted epub.
But the added Kobo Code is a sort of "catch all solution" to make sure that Kobo features can be changed through the user interface. But as my example shows it also alters the lay out in an unwanted way. Maybe this can be solved by rewriting the Kobo code but this might be easier said than done but not impossible.

davidfor · 05-08-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anak

I agree with you that if a source epub provided by a publisher is poorly formatted, the kepub version is just as bad. And I don't expect Kobo to fix this for every single wrongly formatted epub. The publisher should supply a well formatted epub.
But the added Kobo Code is a sort of "catch all solution" to make sure that Kobo features can be changed through the user interface. But as my example shows it also alters the lay out in an unwanted way. Maybe this can be solved by rewriting the Kobo code but this might be easier said than done but not impossible.

Sorry, I think you missed my point. I don't think the source version of the epub and kepub you use in the first post are the same. There are differences in the rendering: the kepub render tends to use a bigger font and the minimum margin is larger.

As I said, when I compare the epub and kepub versions of books, they are generally the same. I usually read the epub because I fix the formatting problems I see. And I don't want the title at the top or the pages per chapter. But, I have "Childhood's End" by Arthur C Clarke, and if it wasn't for the missing title at the top of each screen, I wouldn't be able to tell the epub and kepub versions apart. It isn't the only one I have like this, but it is one where I read the kepub version because there were no problems.

I think there has been changes. Kobo have changed the kepub styling over time. There were more differences in the past. From something Kobo has said, I don't think they have applied this to all books, only new books and those people complain about. Or they are working on them with that being the priority.

Anak · 05-08-2013, 11:40 AM

I think I've found the answer/solution.
There are "two" kepub versions
1. The "old version", where the kobo.css (/*VERSION:1*/) contains code, and causes the mentioned problems
2. The "new version", where the kobo.css is just an empty file, and doesn't have the mentioned problems.

At some point in 2012 Kobo made some changes to the kepub html code to improve the text lay out.
Kobo should have patched all existing kepubs by replacing the kobo.css with an empty one.

The old kobo.css

Code:


html {
height: 100% !important;
margin: 0 !important;
}
img {
max-width: 100%;
max-height: 100%;
overflow: none;
}
body {
font-size: 14pt;
line-height: 1.575em !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
margin: 0 !important;
height: 100% !important;
overflow-wrap: break-word !important;
}
.KBHeading, h1 {
margin-top: 0 !important;
display: block !important;
text-align: center !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
font-size: 1.33em !important;
text-transform: uppercase !important;
letter-spacing: 0.1em !important;
}
.KBSubheading, h2 {
margin-top: 0 !important;
display: block !important;
text-align: center !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
font-size: 1.25em !important;
}
.KBSubsubheading, h3, h4, h5, h6 {
margin-top: 0 !important;
font-size: 1em !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
font-weight: bold !important;
}
a:link {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
a:visited {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
a:hover {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
a:active {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
p, div {
font-size: 14pt;
line-height: 1.475em !important;
text-indent: 0 !important;
margin: 0 !important;
padding-top: 0 !important;
padding-bottom: 1.0em !important;
text-align: left !important;
}
.KBIcon {
padding-top: 0 !important;
}
.KBFooter {
position: static !important;
margin-left: auto !important;
padding-top: 10% !important;
}

Blank lines

Code:

padding-bottom: 1.0em !important;
to
padding-bottom: 0 !important;

Solves the unwanted blank lines between sentences or paragraphs.

Text alignment to center text
However, fooling around with text alignment settings in the kobo.css didn't solve the bug that text that should be displayed as centered was actually displayed as aligned to the left.
But when all code in de kobo.css was deleted or replaced by an empty one the text alignment issue was solved.

1. Kepub preview, released May 2013 (no issues, "new kepub")
2. Kepub preview, released September 2012 ("old kepub")

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidfor

Sorry, I think you missed my point. I don't think the source version of the epub and kepub you use in the first post are the same. There are differences in the rendering: the kepub render tends to use a bigger font and the minimum margin is larger.

@DavidFor. It's the same source and I understand why you thought that. In the kobo.css the default font size is set to 14pt and explains why the font size is 16,67% larger. The default font size in RMSDK and Access NetFront BookReader is 12pt.
The kepub has larger margins because "Kobo" uses a default page margin that come on top of the original page margins as defined in the epub.
Except when margins are defined in a template.xpgt this rule of thumb doesn't apply.
If you create a epub and set all page margins to 0 (e.g.: @page {margin:0;}, p {margin:0;padding:0;}) you'll see that the kepub has default margins.

DNSB · 05-08-2013, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anak

1. Kepub preview, released May 2013 (no issues, "new kepub")
2. Kepub preview, released September 2012 ("old kepub")

Interesting. When I downloaded the two books, both had 0 length kobo.css files. When I took another look out of curiosity as to why one did not have a graphics cover and redownloaded it, the file downloaded had a 1523 byte kobo.css file.

Regards,
David

PurpleStar · 05-08-2013, 03:04 PM

The thing I don't like about the kepubs is there's a big space in between every sentence or paragraph.

Like this.

And this.

Such a waste of a page! So I just sideload and read the normal epubs.

taming · 05-08-2013, 03:45 PM

PurpleStar--that is less true with newer books, as Kobo has made some changes. It seems that they are slowly going through many of the older ones and "fixing" that.

PurpleStar · 05-08-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taming

PurpleStar--that is less true with newer books, as Kobo has made some changes. It seems that they are slowly going through many of the older ones and "fixing" that.

That is good to know! It sure was annoying.

buffaloseven · 05-08-2013, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anak

I think I've found the solution.
There are "two" kepub versions
1. The "old version", where the kobo.css (/*VERSION:1*/) contains code, and causes the mentioned problems
2. The "new version", where the kobo.css is just an empty file, and doesn't have the mentioned problems.

At some point in 2012 Kobo made some changes to the kepub html code to improve the text lay out.
Kobo should have patched all existing kepubs by replacing the kobo.css with an empty one.

The old kobo.css

Code:


html {
height: 100% !important;
margin: 0 !important;
}
img {
max-width: 100%;
max-height: 100%;
overflow: none;
}
body {
font-size: 14pt;
line-height: 1.575em !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
margin: 0 !important;
height: 100% !important;
overflow-wrap: break-word !important;
}
.KBHeading, h1 {
margin-top: 0 !important;
display: block !important;
text-align: center !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
font-size: 1.33em !important;
text-transform: uppercase !important;
letter-spacing: 0.1em !important;
}
.KBSubheading, h2 {
margin-top: 0 !important;
display: block !important;
text-align: center !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
font-size: 1.25em !important;
}
.KBSubsubheading, h3, h4, h5, h6 {
margin-top: 0 !important;
font-size: 1em !important;
font-family: 'Georgia' !important;
font-weight: bold !important;
}
a:link {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
a:visited {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
a:hover {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
a:active {
color: #1DAEC7 !important;
}
p, div {
font-size: 14pt;
line-height: 1.475em !important;
text-indent: 0 !important;
margin: 0 !important;
padding-top: 0 !important;
padding-bottom: 1.0em !important;
text-align: left !important;
}
.KBIcon {
padding-top: 0 !important;
}
.KBFooter {
position: static !important;
margin-left: auto !important;
padding-top: 10% !important;
}

Blank lines

Code:

padding-bottom: 1.0em !important;
to
padding-bottom: 0 !important;

Solves the unwanted blank lines between sentences or paragraphs.

Text alignment to center text
However, fooling around with text alignment settings in the kobo.css didn't solve the bug that text that should be displayed as centered was actually displayed as aligned to the left.
But when all code in de kobo.css was deleted or replaced by an empty one the text alignment issue was solved.

1. Kepub preview, released May 2013 (no issues, "new kepub")
2. Kepub preview, released September 2012 ("old kepub")

If the images are in a p or a div, the

Code:

margin: 0 !important;

listed in the CSS file may be overriding the centering if they're relying on an image of specific width in a div having

Code:

margin: 0 auto;

to center it.

taming · 05-08-2013, 04:45 PM

It may not be possible to fully automate this process, and they do have a whole lot of books that could benefit from this.

buffaloseven · 05-08-2013, 04:49 PM

From all the epubs I've taken apart and looked at, it would be so nice if they would simply add something like "class=image" to p/div blocks that are exclusively for images. I assume if you removed the "margin: 0 !important" from the CSS file above, you may end up with funny looking paragraphs elsewhere in the book. If the images were in a div with their own class, it'd be easy to target them in the CSS file.

I know playing around lately that it's probably best to leave the justification settings on the Glo to "Off." Using left or justified will (correctly) apply those settings to everything. That includes items that should be centered (remembering that justified items with a width less than a whole line are left-aligned).

taming · 05-08-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buffaloseven

From all the epubs I've taken apart and looked at, it would be so nice if they would simply add something like "class=image" to p/div blocks that are exclusively for images.

Which they do you mean?

Sharkus · 05-08-2013, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taming

Which they do you mean?

Probably us, ie; Kobo.

I think that when books are loaded onto the system there are some automated things that happen to the books, and I believe that adding the kobo css files is one of these things.

There were changes last year to the css, and books were being reprocessed. With the number of books we have, that can take some time.

Another thing to take into consideration is that any css changes do need to be evaluated on the various platforms to ensure they do not have unwanted behaviour. For example, a change that makes things better on eInk devices could cause a problem for an iOS device. I do recall iPhone and iPad css files, so there can be some device specific customizations, but anything generic we have to be very careful with.

taming · 05-08-2013, 07:43 PM

Sharkus, if it is not a style sheet issue, but rather the coding of the book itself, then that is not a Kobo fix, but a Publisher issue though. Right? I have seen things that a style sheet fix will take care of, but other things that require some tweaking of the book's html.

DNSB · 05-08-2013, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taming

Sharkus, if it is not a style sheet issue, but rather the coding of the book itself, then that is not a Kobo fix, but a Publisher issue though. Right? I have seen things that a style sheet fix will take care of, but other things that require some tweaking of the book's html.

The publishers also use stylesheet(s) to control the appearance of the book as well. Mix in some very strange (in my opinion) in-line styles and the whole ebook becomes a pyramid balanced on it's tip. Quite often, I've found it easier to simply dump the publisher style and replace it with my own styles. At least, I don't do things like specifying the body style scattered over two stylesheets and an inline piece.

Sometimes, even trivial items such as renaming embedded font files which I did today while looking at one of Roger64's books. Changed the font file names, changed the @font-face entries. Everything looked fine except the drop caps. See the images below for what they looked like in ADE on a Windows PC. Ended up changing the drop cap css to some code used before and looked okay again.

image 1 = original
image 2 = font files renamed
image 3 = drop cap css modified (let1)

Regards,
David

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05-08-2013, 03:04 PM	#51
PurpleStar Wizard Posts: 1,625 Karma: 11387182 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Canada Device: Kobo Clara BW, Kindle Paperwhite (11th Gen)	The thing I don't like about the kepubs is there's a big space in between every sentence or paragraph. Like this. And this. Such a waste of a page! So I just sideload and read the normal epubs.

05-08-2013, 03:45 PM	#52
taming Trying for calm & polite Posts: 4,012 Karma: 9455193 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mostly in Canada Device: kobo original, WiFI, Touch, Glo, and Aura	PurpleStar--that is less true with newer books, as Kobo has made some changes. It seems that they are slowly going through many of the older ones and "fixing" that.

05-08-2013, 04:45 PM	#55
taming Trying for calm & polite Posts: 4,012 Karma: 9455193 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mostly in Canada Device: kobo original, WiFI, Touch, Glo, and Aura	It may not be possible to fully automate this process, and they do have a whole lot of books that could benefit from this.

05-08-2013, 04:49 PM	#56
buffaloseven Watching the Sky Posts: 239 Karma: 634112 Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Winnipeg, MB Device: Kobo Aura	From all the epubs I've taken apart and looked at, it would be so nice if they would simply add something like "class=image" to p/div blocks that are exclusively for images. I assume if you removed the "margin: 0 !important" from the CSS file above, you may end up with funny looking paragraphs elsewhere in the book. If the images were in a div with their own class, it'd be easy to target them in the CSS file. I know playing around lately that it's probably best to leave the justification settings on the Glo to "Off." Using left or justified will (correctly) apply those settings to everything. That includes items that should be centered (remembering that justified items with a width less than a whole line are left-aligned).

05-08-2013, 07:43 PM	#59
taming Trying for calm & polite Posts: 4,012 Karma: 9455193 Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mostly in Canada Device: kobo original, WiFI, Touch, Glo, and Aura	Sharkus, if it is not a style sheet issue, but rather the coding of the book itself, then that is not a Kobo fix, but a Publisher issue though. Right? I have seen things that a style sheet fix will take care of, but other things that require some tweaking of the book's html.

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