The intersection of DRM, fair use, and ereader device spying

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

If you want to support the continued use of DRM on ebooks that's your choice, why complain that ebooks have DRM on them?

Originally Posted by jgaiser

I'm not Jon, but I'll answer anyway.

I don't complain about DRM. DRM is a no-op. It's a waste of time and money for publishers who seem to think that they can make me believe I'm buying a licenses instead of a product. It takes seconds to remove and it's not preventing the pirating of books they firmly believe they're preventing.

If you want to oppose DRM for philosophical reasons or you somehow believe that you're only purchasing a license, be my guest. Get off your high horse about other people's decisions.

Thank you for perfectly illustrating the lack of self control that I've been talking about. My comment wasn't directed at you, but you answered anyways... (that's ok, any member of the forum can respond to any post.)

But I specifically mentioned "complaining about DRM" and your next sentence was "I don't complain about DRM"... You felt compelled to describe how you remove the DRM and disregard the agreement you entered into when you purchased a limited use license.

[WillysJeepMan]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

It's not a matter of supporting DRM or not. It's a matter of do I want to read what I want to read or do I have to force myself to read what I may not want to read just because it has no DRM?

Not only is it a matter of supporting DRM, it is also a matter of a sense of entitlement to ebooks.

You have constructed a false dichotomy. The two options you set up are, "Do I want to read what I want to read" and "do I force myself to read what I may not want to read just because it as no DRM".

The fallacy of those two statements is the implication that you are limited to eBooks. The truth is, you are not.

If you want to artificially restrict yourself to eBooks only, then that is a personal preference... but you then cannot use that self-imposed restriction as the justification for buying something that you say you don't want to support.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

Not only is it a matter of supporting DRM, it is also a matter of a sense of entitlement to ebooks.

You have constructed a false dichotomy. The two options you set up are, "Do I want to read what I want to read" and "do I force myself to read what I may not want to read just because it as no DRM".

The fallacy of those two statements is the implication that you are limited to eBooks. The truth is, you are not.

If you want to artificially restrict yourself to eBooks only, then that is a personal preference... but you then cannot use that self-imposed restriction as the justification for buying something that you say you don't want to support.

OK, here's the thing. you say my buying eBook with DRM tells the publisher that DRM is OK to use. Now you say I can buy other then eBooks. So if I don't buy any eBooks, I'm then telling publishers that eBooks don't sell.

So what's the middle ground in this case? Do we tell publishers that eBooks don't sell or do we tell them DRM is OK?

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

OK, here's the thing. you say my buying eBook with DRM tells the publisher that DRM is OK to use. Now you say I can buy other then eBooks. So if I don't buy any eBooks, I'm then telling publishers that eBooks don't sell.

So what's the middle ground in this case? Do we tell publishers that eBooks don't sell or do we tell them DRM is OK?

The "middle ground" here is opening your eyes to the millions of high-quality non-DRM ebooks available, and not disdaining them because they don't come with a big-publisher marketing campaign that labels them as good.

It takes more effort to find them; whether that's worth it to you depends on how much effort you're willing to spend to communicate with publishers. If you think DRM is non-problematic enough that you're happy to encourage it, go ahead & keep buying DRM'd books and treating them however you feel is best. If you think DRM *matters,* that it's important to get rid of it, stop paying companies who use it.

The idea of "but then I'll have to read something I might not like!!" is ridiculous. If your taste in books is so limited that only DRM'd editions could possibly keep you entertained, your opinions about the future of literature are irrelevant.

If you can't suss out from a blurb and few pages of sample whether you expect to enjoy a book, you're not competent to discuss the value or quality of literature. If you don't have *TIME* to spend to decide that... you've decided convenient purchases are more important to you than eliminating DRM.

For a lot of people, convenience trumps a lot of other issues. But don't try to convince people that you're anti-DRM when what you really mean is "I want one less inconvenience in my shopping." In other words: Put your money where your mouth is. Support the authors and companies who act in ways you approve of, and stop supporting the ones you think are unethical or too greedy.

[crossi]

If someone was really worried how difficult would it be to open your ereader and simply remove the bits that allow whispernet either by 3g or wi-fi? I never use it anyway so I wouldn't miss it.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The "middle ground" here is opening your eyes to the millions of high-quality non-DRM ebooks available, and not disdaining them because they don't come with a big-publisher marketing campaign that labels them as good.

You're making an enormous assumption here that those of us who buy from the mainstream publishers do so because of a marketing campaign. Gee, maybe I buy from them because I like the authors and books they publish. Maybe I was reading their books in paper and now I am simply continuing to read them in digital form. Maybe I like reading a book that meets certain minimal standards of competence.

It takes more effort to find them; whether that's worth it to you depends on how much effort you're willing to spend to communicate with publishers. If you think DRM is non-problematic enough that you're happy to encourage it, go ahead & keep buying DRM'd books and treating them however you feel is best. If you think DRM *matters,* that it's important to get rid of it, stop paying companies who use it.

The idea of "but then I'll have to read something I might not like!!" is ridiculous. If your taste in books is so limited that only DRM'd editions could possibly keep you entertained, your opinions about the future of literature are irrelevant.

Pretty harsh, don't you think? I read for enjoyment, not to make some grand statement about the future of literature or publishing. You complain about the big publishers dictating what we should read, yet you yourself are letting them do exactly that--you're refusing to read their books simply because they are DRMed.

If you can't suss out from a blurb and few pages of sample whether you expect to enjoy a book, you're not competent to discuss the value or quality of literature. If you don't have *TIME* to spend to decide that... you've decided convenient purchases are more important to you than eliminating DRM.

Are you "competent to discuss the value or quality of literature" when you summarily dismiss all books with DRM? DRM in itself does not affect the quality of the writing, so aren't you shutting off a whole world of wonderful books by your dogmatic stand?

Don't know what your point about time is. Buying from the major publishers means I spend extra time to strip the DRM, but I'd rather do that than avoid a good book for something as silly as DRM.

For a lot of people, convenience trumps a lot of other issues. But don't try to convince people that you're anti-DRM when what you really mean is "I want one less inconvenience in my shopping." In other words: Put your money where your mouth is. Support the authors and companies who act in ways you approve of, and stop supporting the ones you think are unethical or too greedy.

See above. I put up with the inconvenience of DRM in order to read what I want, in the way I want. And that is exactly what I will continue to do.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Catlady

You're making an enormous assumption here that those of us who buy from the mainstream publishers do so because of a marketing campaign.

You know those books *exist* because of a marketing campaign.

Gee, maybe I buy from them because I like the authors and books they publish. Maybe I was reading their books in paper and now I am simply continuing to read them in digital form. Maybe I like reading a book that meets certain minimal standards of competence.

Unless you intend your future reading to be entirely limited to authors you already know, you're basing your reading choices on their advertising skills. "Certain minimal standards of competence" is fine--but plenty of non-DRM'd and self-pubbed books have standards just as high as any DRM-using publisher, and some of them are higher.

Of course, there's no nice simple list of those authors and publishers. So there's also a possibility of "I can't be bothered to seek out the few self-pubbed works that are great in the midst of all the crapola slush, and I know the works published by DRM-using publishers are at least competently edited."

I have NO problem admitting that the vast majority of self-pub work is garbage. For myself, I'm often entertained by it, and I enjoy some of the more "experimental" styles. I don't blame others for not wanting to waste their time wading through all that--but don't pretend it's because "all the best books are released with DRM." I'd prefer people be honest and admit that their time is more valuable than their opposition to DRM.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't like DRM but it's not important enough to me to limit my reading to works without it."

Pretty harsh, don't you think? I read for enjoyment, not to make some grand statement about the future of literature or publishing. You complain about the big publishers dictating what we should read, yet you yourself are letting them do exactly that--you're refusing to read their books simply because they are DRMed.

I'm not complaining about publishers dictating what we should read. (Well, not in this thread; that's a philosophical argument that has nothing to do with DRM.) I'm complaining about DRM limiting how I read books... and have decided I won't pay to support those limitations, no matter what quality of literature is hiding behind the lock.

Are you "competent to discuss the value or quality of literature" when you summarily dismiss all books with DRM?

I'm not saying those books aren't quality books; I'm saying they don't fit with my reading habits. I am saying that anybody who insists "all the books I would enjoy reading are released with DRM" has pathetic and limited tastes in literature--which is *not* the same as "it's not worth it to me to find books without DRM that I'd enjoy."

If you honestly believe that books released by mainstream DRM publishers are the only ones you would like, your tastes are very limited. If you just don't care to spend the time wading through the digital slushpile to find the indie releases that are of similar quality levels in genres and styles you'd like--that's a very reasonable choice to make.

DRM in itself does not affect the quality of the writing, so aren't you shutting off a whole world of wonderful books by your dogmatic stand?

I am indeed. I am saying that the marketing choice of DRM is more important to me than the quality of the individual book; I do not support titles released with DRM no matter how good those book are.

Am I missing out on some good books? Undoubtedly. However, the world is full of good books I don't have time or inclination to read; I'm not shorting myself on fun or educational reading material. There are more books than I have time for; authors who want my time--and my money--can find ways to get me books in formats I'm willing to pay for.

Don't know what your point about time is. Buying from the major publishers means I spend extra time to strip the DRM, but I'd rather do that than avoid a good book for something as silly as DRM.

I don't consider DRM to be "silly;" I consider it an insult to my integrity. By offering me a book only with DRM, the publisher is saying that I cannot be trusted to act ethically or within the law without technological restraints. I try to avoid doing business with people who insult me.

If you're willing to pay to be be called a potential thief in order to read a good book, this may not matter to you. Might depend on how much you want to read the book, or how personally you take an insult aimed at thousands of customers. Shrug.

See above. I put up with the inconvenience of DRM in order to read what I want, in the way I want. And that is exactly what I will continue to do.

I consider the inconvenience of seeking DRM-free quality works to be less troublesome than supporting an insulting practice I find unethical, at least in this case. I have nothing against people who decide in the other direction; I *do* object to people who won't admit they're supporting the DRM-based market when they purchase those books, and to people who insist that "all the good books have DRM."

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

You know those books *exist* because of a marketing campaign.

No. I know they exist for a variety of reasons; serendipitous browsing, recommendations on Amazon, focused searches, friends' recommendations, etc. You might want to lump this all together and call it indirect marketing, but then just about every behavior is somehow influenced by indirect marketing.

Unless you intend your future reading to be entirely limited to authors you already know, you're basing your reading choices on their advertising skills. "Certain minimal standards of competence" is fine--but plenty of non-DRM'd and self-pubbed books have standards just as high as any DRM-using publisher, and some of them are higher.

No. See above. Advertising is not the issue. The point is that self-pubbed books may or may not reach a level of basic competence, whereas with a mainstream publisher, at a minimum I have an expectation that the product has gone through an editing process and I can at least expect basic rules of grammar to be followed, words to be mostly spelled correctly, and a somewhat coherent story to be told.

Of course, there's no nice simple list of those authors and publishers. So there's also a possibility of "I can't be bothered to seek out the few self-pubbed works that are great in the midst of all the crapola slush, and I know the works published by DRM-using publishers are at least competently edited."

Fine, I can't be bothered wading through a slush pile when publishers will wade through a slush pile for me and shape a ms. into something at least marginally readable; in exchange I pay a little more and I have the annoyance of DRM. Fair trade-off, I think.

I have NO problem admitting that the vast majority of self-pub work is garbage. For myself, I'm often entertained by it, and I enjoy some of the more "experimental" styles. I don't blame others for not wanting to waste their time wading through all that--but don't pretend it's because "all the best books are released with DRM." I'd prefer people be honest and admit that their time is more valuable than their opposition to DRM.

Publishers employ vast numbers of people to do the work that you seem to think each of us should do on our own. I never said "All the best books are released with DRM," but--yes. They are. Pick a random sample of 20 mainstream published books and 20 self-published books in the same time period, and I'm a hundred percent sure that the 20 from the mainstream publishers will be better.

There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't like DRM but it's not important enough to me to limit my reading to works without it."

Yep, that's what I'm saying. I don't want to be dictated to. Am I not taking a principled stand by saying, in effect, Screw DRM, I'll read what I want.

I'm not complaining about publishers dictating what we should read. (Well, not in this thread; that's a philosophical argument that has nothing to do with DRM.) I'm complaining about DRM limiting how I read books... and have decided I won't pay to support those limitations, no matter what quality of literature is hiding behind the lock.

It's only limiting how you read because you are letting it--biting off your nose to spite your face. You are definitely letting the publishers dictate to you, and I am not.

I'm not saying those books aren't quality books; I'm saying they don't fit with my reading habits. I am saying that anybody who insists "all the books I would enjoy reading are released with DRM" has pathetic and limited tastes in literature--which is *not* the same as "it's not worth it to me to find books without DRM that I'd enjoy."

If you honestly believe that books released by mainstream DRM publishers are the only ones you would like, your tastes are very limited. If you just don't care to spend the time wading through the digital slushpile to find the indie releases that are of similar quality levels in genres and styles you'd like--that's a very reasonable choice to make.

You are making a distinction without a difference. But I guess my taste is pathetic and limited, because I am not going to waste time looking through the slush pile. If there are hidden gems, they'll eventually come to the attention of a mainstream publisher.

I am indeed. I am saying that the marketing choice of DRM is more important to me than the quality of the individual book; I do not support titles released with DRM no matter how good those book are.

Am I missing out on some good books? Undoubtedly. However, the world is full of good books I don't have time or inclination to read; I'm not shorting myself on fun or educational reading material. There are more books than I have time for; authors who want my time--and my money--can find ways to get me books in formats I'm willing to pay for.

So ... how come it's noble of you to deliberately take a stand against DRM by depriving yourself of so many books, but it's "pathetic and limited" of me to take a stand against unreadable, awful, poorly written crapola by refusing to read it and financially support the people who write it?

You miss out on some gems because of your anti-DRM stand; I theoretically miss out on some gems by my anti-self-pub stand. Frankly, I think you're missing out on more than I am.

I don't consider DRM to be "silly;" I consider it an insult to my integrity. By offering me a book only with DRM, the publisher is saying that I cannot be trusted to act ethically or within the law without technological restraints. I try to avoid doing business with people who insult me.

If you're willing to pay to be be called a potential thief in order to read a good book, this may not matter to you. Might depend on how much you want to read the book, or how personally you take an insult aimed at thousands of customers. Shrug.

I consider the inconvenience of seeking DRM-free quality works to be less troublesome than supporting an insulting practice I find unethical, at least in this case. I have nothing against people who decide in the other direction; I *do* object to people who won't admit they're supporting the DRM-based market when they purchase those books, and to people who insist that "all the good books have DRM."

The self-proclaimed authors who produce garbage insult my intelligence, and I have no recourse with them--I can get rid of the DRM easily enough, but I can't do anything to turn a rotten book into one that's worthwhile.

Originally Posted by crossi

If someone was really worried how difficult would it be to open your ereader and simply remove the bits that allow whispernet either by 3g or wi-fi? I never use it anyway so I wouldn't miss it.

A lot of the components are surface mount these days, which makes them difficult to remove. In one case, I pulled out a Wi-Fi card and the entire device failed to function. Very few consumers devices are made to be modified these days.

[Greg Anos]

But hardware is a pile of rocks without software. One reason for rooting, if the rooting lets you turn off access to the wifi,ect...

[Freeshadow]

The middle ground is:
a) buy clean
b) get loud at the publishers
Go to book fairs ask why you are mistreated as a consumer say you want buy books and no adobe tickets etc.

[Lynx-lynx]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I think this whole chain has missed the main point.

Why do you have a reader that has WiFi/3G/4G/ect. ?

Why do you store backup on the Cloud?

You have as much privacy as you are willing to pay for. Sometimes in money, sometimes in extra bother.

I run a Hanlin V3 reader. Old, not particularly popular. It doesn't have Wifi, everything has to be sideloaded. I backup to my sterile (non-internet computer), and keep a SD chip copy of my library off-site.

No worrys about who is watching my metadata, whether from a Big Brother sense, or just marketing 'bots trying to sell me things. Nobody knows what I read, they can only know that I bought it. Useful, but limiting for the marketing 'bots.

If you want privacy, give up your reader connection and the Cloud. It's that simple...

(I live by the rule - "If it can't happen, it won't happen." Call me paranoid if you wish....)

I can relate to a lot of what you say Ralph Sir Edward. However, because I can't read easily on my Sony 650 because it's just not light enough (I need front lighting or whatever it's known as) I read instead from my BB Playbook which has wifi and bridge access when I activate them.

But .... I've made a decision not to buy books using the Playbook because it makes sense to me to download a new purchase onto a PC, clean it and put it through Calibre before I then side load it.

I buy ebooks, and download free ebooks, from whichever sites suit at the time, including Kobo, Sony, Book Depository, Borders etc.

I also reasoned that if I used my Playbook as the purchase platform and initial download site that I may very likely have format compatibility issues - so that limits my options as well.

I also considered that purchasing via PC and downloading my purchases immediately, meant that what I did with the ebook then would remain private to myself only.

In the future I will no doubt buy another ebook reader, and it may or may not have wifi or 3G access, but I have determined from the outset that I would not turn these attributes on, because it seems to me that a 'footprint' of some description would be made about a purchase specific to the device, and that there is likely to be the possibility via cookies, that all books with certain extensions kept on the device would also be able to be read back to the company the next time that I connected to the ebook seller site.

As far as I'm concerned, my business is my business!!!

[speakingtohe]

I am pretty sure Amazon, B&N etc. are not backing up sideloaded content to the cloud without the users permission. If they did not sell you the book to you then it would be pretty iffy for them to access it in any way on thier own.

As to recommending products based on the content of your ereader, again iffy if they have not sold it to you.

As to examining your documents, books etc. without your permission, even if they have sold them to you, whether you are guilty or not they would be in a whole mess of legal trouble. And has been pointed out do they have the time and resources to do this. Do they want to hire lawyers prosecute you for removing DRM? Could happen, but I doubt it.

Helen

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by WillysJeepMan

Breaking DRM is the coward's way out. Exercising self control in not purchasing DRM'ed eBooks is where the true consumer power is.

Letting you tell me what to do would be cowardly.

[country0129]

Does anyone know of an utility that would ferret out DRM protected books in a library directory on your computer?

I've imported all my *.AZW and comparable books into my Calibre library, and I can't use them across muliple platforms. I'd like to delete those specific book to have a residual of books DRM free in the library.

And, it's not as simple as opening each one to see, for I have over 12,000 books in the library. I've moved all the *.AZW books to a different directory, and I'd like to move those not DRM'd back to the Calibre directory.

A plugin? Another software producer? Anyone know?