Smashwords Succumbs to Censorship - Page 4

Catlady · 02-26-2012, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaJMcIntyre

How would you feel if you had your Paypal account frozen because you purchased a legal ebook from a site initially approved by Paypal, but then Paypal deems the book does not meet its moral standards, so they freeze your account? Maybe you wouldn’t care, but if you were like many people who work online, and are forced to use Paypal to receive payment, it could really hurt you financially. Do you really feel comfortable giving a corporation that much power over your life? (I've read this has happened)

Where do you see even the slightest suggestion of PayPal freezing an individual purchaser's account?

If you don't like/agree with PayPal, don't use it. Simple.

Smashwords · 02-26-2012, 11:19 AM

Hi all, I thought I'd add a couple comments...

1. Can't Smashwords simply change service providers? Yes. Although it would be difficult for us to decouple our payment systems from them (PayPal runs our credit card processing, and we also pay our authors via PayPal), it wasn't possible on such short notice but it's not impossible for the future. The problem with such a move is that it's not a permanent, reliable long term solution. PayPal tells us their policy is necessary to remain in compliance with the banks and credit card companies that power their services. This means that even if we were to switch to another provider, there's nothing stopping other providers from unplugging us when they take heat from the credit card companies. The long term solution is for consumers to speak out against those financial service providers who use their power to tell us what we can and cannot read. Sign petitions. Contact your bank. Call your members of congress. Tell these folks fiction is not real, it's fantasy and you want their hands out of your head. Erotica authors are being discriminated against. Topics that are okay in mainstream fiction aren't allowed in erotica. It's a bad precedent.

2. Chargebacks. I've seen the excuse out there from financial institutions that "obscene" content carries a risk of higher chargebacks. I don't know, that may be true with escort services and pornographic videos, but we're not seeing that with erotica. Our charge backs are negligible. Erotica customers at Smashwords have shown themselves to be responsible customers who pay for what they order. The biggest theft we've experienced over the last 6 months was from a customer (I think he/she is from India) who was using stolen credit cards to purchase books on self-help and spiritual enlightenment. Ironic, I know.

3. For anyone interested to read my letter, here's the link: Smashwords Modifies Terms of Service Regarding Incest, Bestiality and Rape

WT Sharpe · 02-26-2012, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

Wait. Smashwords is allowed to refuse to do business according to its own set of standards, but PayPal isn't?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why are you outraged? Don't PayPal equally have the right to choose who they do business with? I don't agree with their decision, but I believe it's a decision they have a right to make.

I'm outraged at their sticking their nose in what books a bookseller can and cannot sell. Yes, as the financial institution through which those books are being sold I suppose that's their right, but the way they went about it and the narrow frame of time they gave Smashwords to comply strikes me as bullying, and perhaps an attempt to drive them out of business.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgalbrecht

So does this mean than Smashwords will have to crack down on all that paranormal romance involving werewolves? And did Paypal send similar letters to Amazon and B&N, since they sell some or all Smashword titles? When I click through the Amazon free ebook list at eReaderIQ.com, I notice a fair number of erotica stories had mommy/daddy/daughter in the title, which I assume indicate they are violating Paypal's incest policy.

Amazon doesn't accept PayPal.

DuckieTigger · 02-26-2012, 12:19 PM

That can also back-fire on Paypal in a way that credit card companies could refuse to do business with Paypal. Surely credit card companies don't limit you on what adult stuff you may be buying. The biggest online payment company could go under if it pisses off enough big-wigs in banks and cc-companies.

You can still buy all kinds of things on ebay. Are they going to put the same restrictions on ebay?

Catlady · 02-26-2012, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

I'm outraged at their sticking their nose in what books a bookseller can and cannot sell. Yes, as the financial institution through which those books are being sold I suppose that's their right, but the way they went about it and the narrow frame of time they gave Smashwords to comply strikes me as bullying, and perhaps an attempt to drive them out of business.

But why aren't you equally outraged that Smashwords can refuse certain material? Why do you think it's OK for Smashwords to have certain standards and rules, but not PayPal? It seems logically inconsistent to me. Smashwords gets to use its discretion about its business practices, but you are upset when PayPal does.

FizzyWater · 02-26-2012, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by teh603

Tell me, do werewolves have sex in wolf form or human form? And do you actually "have the lights on" when they're doing it?

I stopped buying were-whatever paranormal erotic romance from a certain independent epublisher a few (uh, at least 5?) years back because it seemed like every one I picked up had "furry" sex.

And I'm not talking about two wolves out on a run....it would invariably be a human-shaped female and a wolf-shaped male. I don't much care if the beings are sentient, if in my head I'm picturing "a woman and a dog"? Ick!

SameOldStory · 02-26-2012, 03:39 PM

Sometimes I just can't stop myself from commenting.

MobileRead has hosted this argument over and over - "SOMEONE wants to control what we can, or can not, read!" CENSORSHIP!!!

We get the same people stating the same arguments - "I don't read that stuff, BUT..."

The more “tolerant” one is, the louder they are likely to cry out that NO ONE should exercise the right to take actions that are within their own self interest. If such action should offend the “tolerant” one that is. That would be immoral, and being “moral” is intolerable!

In a nutshell, DRIVEL.

MR, itself, uses censorship to protect its interests. And though there have been times when I personally disagree with its' actions, I do understand that it feels a need to do so.

ScalyFreak · 02-26-2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

But why aren't you equally outraged that Smashwords can refuse certain material? Why do you think it's OK for Smashwords to have certain standards and rules, but not PayPal? It seems logically inconsistent to me. Smashwords gets to use its discretion about its business practices, but you are upset when PayPal does.

My guess: Because when PayPal does, they try to force other businesses to follow their standards, and they bully them in the process of doing so. Smashwords can have certain standards and rules, but if they tried to force either Sony or B&N to comply by said standards before they were allowed to sell Smashwords books in their ebook stores, then Smashwords would be as wrong there as PayPal is here.

Setting your own moral standards is always fine. Forcing others to live by them without giving them a choice, is not.

ucfgrad93 · 02-26-2012, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ScalyFreak

Forcing others to live by them without giving them a choice, is not.

Smashwords has a choice. There are other ways for them to accept payments from customers.

QuantumIguana · 02-26-2012, 03:49 PM

Smashwords can have their own policies on what books to stock. It is then between me and Smashwords whether I do business there. I could buy it from someone else. But when a third party gets so powerful it is able to dictate what stores may stock, then it has become too powerful.

ScalyFreak · 02-26-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ucfgrad93

Smashwords has a choice. There are other ways for them to accept payments from customers.

True, but their statement earlier in the thread indicates clearly that PayPal gave them too short notice to arrange for an alternative. For an online retailer, shutting down business on their website for any length of time, while working out a deal with for example Google, is very dangerous, and they may never recover from the loss of revenue and the publicity that follows.

So in theory I suppose they had a choice. In practice though, it wasn't much of one.

murraypaul · 02-26-2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CommonReader

Well, I don't live in the US so I don't know what sort of special advantages PayPal offers to its customers. Its European subsidiary - which is set up in Luxembourg - has a well known history for the opaque handling of customer complaints.
Anyway, it does require a license for providing financial services. If a bank here in Germany refused to conduct a money transfer just because it dislikes the recipient's (legal) product range, then the supervisory authorities would come down on that bank like a ton of bricks. I am always surprised how accepting many readers in the US are when large companies throw their weight around like this. For anyone at the receiving end of such treatment it can be as bad as traditional oppression by government agencies.

So you think Visa, Mastercard, ... are required in Germany to supply credit card processing services to any company who wishes them? They have the right to choose which clients they accept, why would PayPal be different?

ucfgrad93 · 02-26-2012, 03:59 PM

I agree that Paypal should have given them a longer timeframe to comply.

MrsJoseph · 02-26-2012, 04:04 PM

Welp, just got rid of my paypal account. I don't need them and they are too expensive anyway. And any company that does what Paypal just did will do worse in the future. No need to hang around waiting for the other shoe to drop.

teh603 · 02-26-2012, 06:48 PM

I'll be honest, I actually use eBay from time to time, so I won't be getting rid of my own PayPal account. That, and I don't find this particular "censorship" issue that bad. FIAK, this is erotica that either skirts the law or is flat- out illegal in a lot of states, and both Smashwords and PayPal are justified in removing it. And its understandably illegal too; even most people into BDSM find the stuff in question distasteful.

If they were going after stuff like political tracts, even neo-nazi ones, I might be inclined to agree with most of you. But this isn't. This stuff can't even pass the infamous Lemon Test.

02-26-2012, 03:39 PM	#52
SameOldStory My True Self Posts: 3,126 Karma: 66242098 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Trantor, Galactic Center Device: Galaxy Tab 2 7.0	Drivel Sometimes I just can't stop myself from commenting. MobileRead has hosted this argument over and over - "SOMEONE wants to control what we can, or can not, read!" CENSORSHIP!!! We get the same people stating the same arguments - "I don't read that stuff, BUT..." The more “tolerant” one is, the louder they are likely to cry out that NO ONE should exercise the right to take actions that are within their own self interest. If such action should offend the “tolerant” one that is. That would be immoral, and being “moral” is intolerable! In a nutshell, DRIVEL. MR, itself, uses censorship to protect its interests. And though there have been times when I personally disagree with its' actions, I do understand that it feels a need to do so.

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02-26-2012, 11:19 AM	#47
Smashwords Connoisseur Posts: 64 Karma: 4999999 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Los Gatos, CA Device: iPhone	Hi all, I thought I'd add a couple comments... 1. Can't Smashwords simply change service providers? Yes. Although it would be difficult for us to decouple our payment systems from them (PayPal runs our credit card processing, and we also pay our authors via PayPal), it wasn't possible on such short notice but it's not impossible for the future. The problem with such a move is that it's not a permanent, reliable long term solution. PayPal tells us their policy is necessary to remain in compliance with the banks and credit card companies that power their services. This means that even if we were to switch to another provider, there's nothing stopping other providers from unplugging us when they take heat from the credit card companies. The long term solution is for consumers to speak out against those financial service providers who use their power to tell us what we can and cannot read. Sign petitions. Contact your bank. Call your members of congress. Tell these folks fiction is not real, it's fantasy and you want their hands out of your head. Erotica authors are being discriminated against. Topics that are okay in mainstream fiction aren't allowed in erotica. It's a bad precedent. 2. Chargebacks. I've seen the excuse out there from financial institutions that "obscene" content carries a risk of higher chargebacks. I don't know, that may be true with escort services and pornographic videos, but we're not seeing that with erotica. Our charge backs are negligible. Erotica customers at Smashwords have shown themselves to be responsible customers who pay for what they order. The biggest theft we've experienced over the last 6 months was from a customer (I think he/she is from India) who was using stolen credit cards to purchase books on self-help and spiritual enlightenment. Ironic, I know. 3. For anyone interested to read my letter, here's the link: Smashwords Modifies Terms of Service Regarding Incest, Bestiality and Rape

02-26-2012, 12:19 PM	#49
DuckieTigger Wizard Posts: 4,763 Karma: 246906703 Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: USA Device: Oasis 3, Oasis 2, PW3, PW1, KT	That can also back-fire on Paypal in a way that credit card companies could refuse to do business with Paypal. Surely credit card companies don't limit you on what adult stuff you may be buying. The biggest online payment company could go under if it pisses off enough big-wigs in banks and cc-companies. You can still buy all kinds of things on ebay. Are they going to put the same restrictions on ebay?

02-26-2012, 03:49 PM	#55
QuantumIguana Philosopher Posts: 2,034 Karma: 18736532 Join Date: Jan 2012 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2 gen, Kindle Fire 1st Gen, Kindle Touch	Smashwords can have their own policies on what books to stock. It is then between me and Smashwords whether I do business there. I could buy it from someone else. But when a third party gets so powerful it is able to dictate what stores may stock, then it has become too powerful.

02-26-2012, 03:59 PM	#58
ucfgrad93 Wizard Posts: 2,370 Karma: 9026681 Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Colorado Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2nd Gen	I agree that Paypal should have given them a longer timeframe to comply.

02-26-2012, 04:04 PM	#59
MrsJoseph Loves Ellipsis... Posts: 1,554 Karma: 7899232 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Washington, DC Device: Kobo Wifi (broken), nook STR (returned), Kobo Touch, Sony T1	Welp, just got rid of my paypal account. I don't need them and they are too expensive anyway. And any company that does what Paypal just did will do worse in the future. No need to hang around waiting for the other shoe to drop.

02-26-2012, 06:48 PM	#60
teh603 Autism Spectrum Disorder Posts: 1,212 Karma: 6244877 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Coastal Texas Device: Android Phone	I'll be honest, I actually use eBay from time to time, so I won't be getting rid of my own PayPal account. That, and I don't find this particular "censorship" issue that bad. FIAK, this is erotica that either skirts the law or is flat- out illegal in a lot of states, and both Smashwords and PayPal are justified in removing it. And its understandably illegal too; even most people into BDSM find the stuff in question distasteful. If they were going after stuff like political tracts, even neo-nazi ones, I might be inclined to agree with most of you. But this isn't. This stuff can't even pass the infamous Lemon Test.

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