An anonymous piracy poll.

[Stormchild]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What do you mean, "IF they pass a law..."? Downloading pirated stuff IS illegal in the vast majority of countries.

Not sure about that Harry. I would need to see specific cases where that has been proven. My understanding is that it is uploading (sharing) that is illegal. Most P2P systems are 2 way so you upload as you download. That is how most people are found to be breaking the law.

[DiapDealer]

Regardless of uploading/downloading, unauthorized distribution is a violation of copyright. Whether or not the recipients of the illicit material are being actively prosecuted doesn't really have much bearing on its legality.

... and yes, for the record... I've done it. But I felt too shabby about it to ever repeat/make a habit out of it.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Regardless of uploading/downloading, unauthorized distribution is a violation of copyright. Whether or not the recipients of the illicit material are being actively prosecuted doesn't really have much bearing on its legality.

... and yes, for the record... I've done it. But I felt too shabby about it to ever repeat/make a habit out of it.

I would say that uploading definitely is distribution, but can simply downloading (not via a torrent) be legally defined as distribution?

[DiapDealer]

I would say that uploading definitely is distribution, but can simply downloading (not via a torrent) be legally defined as distribution?

It's already an illegal copy of a copyrighted work. How could downloading an already illegal copy (which creates another copy) be legal? Insert whatever legal term is appropriate if it's not "distribution" per se.

(All my opinions are assuming the downloader is in a jurisdiction that honors copyright law, of course)

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It's already an illegal copy of a copyrighted work. How could downloading an already illegal copy (and creating another copy) be legal?

Laws are weird like that.

I've always understood downloading to be, if not legal then essentially un-prosecutable because there's no way to tell whether or not the download is "fair use".

See Elfwreck's point about companies who download their own stuff -- or rather, things LABELED as their own stuff, which is not the same -- in order to track piracy habits of their stuff.

If one downloads what one THINKS is one's own stuff to track but accidentally gets something else, that would be very tricky. Fair use? Well... maybe. Hard to say, actually.

Imagine the Harry Potter people pulling down copies of the books to look at the watermarks and finding the books were ACTUALLY Stephen King books, deliberately mis-labeled.

Similarly, no one has (to my knowledge) tested the legal repercussions of downloading a book one already owns and then pulping it. (Format shifting.)

[DiapDealer]

I've always understood downloading to be, if not legal then essentially un-prosecutable because there's no way to tell whether or not the download is "fair use".

I take no issues with "un-prosecutable."

Sure there are scenarios that question and stretch current jurisprudence; I understand that. All I'm trying to say is that Joe Schmoe—who downloaded a pirated ebook simply because he wanted to read it without paying for it—has no fair use exemption coming to him. Whether he ever gets prosecuted for it or not.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I take no issues with "un-prosecutable."

Sure there are scenarios that question and stretch current jurisprudence; I understand that. All I'm trying to say is that Joe Schmoe—who downloaded a pirated ebook simply because he wanted to read it without paying for it—has no fair use exemption coming to him. Whether he ever gets prosecuted for it or not.

But I do believe that it actually is legal to download pirated material in some areas and possibly in American because of the nuance of the way the law is written.

Now, they'd probably try to get you one way or another for possession of same. But if, say, Rowling's lawyers download Sorcerer's Stone and open it up and it's King's The Cell and they destroy the file, they've not -- I don't THINK -- broken a law in America.

IANAL, though, and I think too much of this thread is Fallacy By What Makes Sense To Me so there's that.

[JDK1962]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

See Elfwreck's point about companies who download their own stuff -- or rather, things LABELED as their own stuff, which is not the same -- in order to track piracy habits of their stuff.

If one downloads what one THINKS is one's own stuff to track but accidentally gets something else, that would be very tricky. Fair use? Well... maybe. Hard to say, actually.

This actually opens up a very interesting area of litigation. Company A downloads a torrent of hundreds of books to check for piracy (and as part of that activity is uploading), and the torrent also contains books from Company B...a bit of piracy that Company B detects because they're checking for piracy (and thereby downloading/uploading Company A content).

Now Companies A and B have grounds to sue each other for copyright infringement. Rather than going after individuals with nothing, they each have a deep-pocketed litigant to go after!

Meta-piracy: piracy in the cause of fighting piracy.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

But I do believe that it actually is legal to download pirated material in some areas and possibly in American because of the nuance of the way the law is written.

Now, they'd probably try to get you one way or another for possession of same. But if, say, Rowling's lawyers download Sorcerer's Stone and open it up and it's King's The Cell and they destroy the file, they've not -- I don't THINK -- broken a law in America.

IANAL, though, and I think too much of this thread is Fallacy By What Makes Sense To Me so there's that.

It is not illegal to use torrents. If J.K. Rowling downloaded a copy of her own book from a torrent, she wouldn't be breaking the law, she has a right to copy it all she wants. If it turned out to be some other book instead, she still hasn't broken the law, she had a reasonable expectation that she was getting her book.

Now if she downloaded the book, and upon discovering it wasn't her book, decided to read it, would she be breaking the law? She hadn't broken the law in downloading it, and wouldn't be copying it, but would instead merely be reading it, and reading it isn't illegal, copying it is. If she were to copy it from her computer to an e-reader, then she would be breaking the law, because it would be an illegal act of copying. On the other hand, you could argue that she had a duty to delete the book once she discovered that it wasn't her book.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

It is not illegal to use torrents. If J.K. Rowling downloaded a copy of her own book from a torrent, she wouldn't be breaking the law, she has a right to copy it all she wants. If it turned out to be some other book instead, she still hasn't broken the law, she had a reasonable expectation that she was getting her book.

It's my understanding that it's not uncommon for books to be bundled and not necessarily one-book, one-title downloads. So if the Rowling people download a bundle to look for their books, they have a VERY reasonable expectation of getting more than just their own.

One of many reasons why I think the law was written such that downloads are permitted. But, hey, IANAL. Still.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by JDK1962

Meta-piracy: piracy in the cause of fighting piracy.

Mmm. Schadenfreude.

[Rime]

I've cracked DRM on mine, converted them to text, FIXED ALL THE *&^%$ TYPOs, and converted them back to mobi and reloaded. I then sent the diff list back to the publisher and didn't even get a response.... ( I like to reread all of the old ones in a series when the latest is due out ) Guess I need to go shopping for a parrot ( which the kitten will probably kill and eat ) and a wooden leg ( which the dog will probably gnaw into a pile of useless splinters )

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by Giggleton

I've never known anyone to illegally download a book because downloading a book is not illegal.

We have a winner!

[Harmon]

Originally Posted by gweeks

Having had discussions with new hires just out of college and kids just graduating from high school I was appalled at the general opinion about copyright. I expect copyright to be dead in 20 years or less. None of the young people I've talked to have any respect for copyright at all.

I'm not surprised - the unreasonable steps taken by the music and movie industries to stem the tide rather than ride the waves has discredited the entirely reasonable objectives of copyright.

[pruss]

Originally Posted by gweeks

Having had discussions with new hires just out of college and kids just graduating from high school I was appalled at the general opinion about copyright. I expect copyright to be dead in 20 years or less. None of the young people I've talked to have any respect for copyright at all.

I am worried about the following scenario: A large majority of the people ignores copyright, the law is barely enforced, so that the law is almost dead-letter in respect of the ordinary citizen. As a result there is not much pressure from the public to change the unfortunate aspects of copyright law (such as the DMCA or ridiculous copyright lengths), even though such laws continue to have adverse effects (e.g., by restricting the activities of a law-abiding minority).

Compare the situation with use taxes. A lot of people, perhaps a majority, fails to pay the legally-required use taxes on out-of-state Internet purchases, and there is no enforcement of the use tax law on ordinary citizens (except with respect to car purchases). As a result there is not much pressure from the public to change the system to make use-tax payment easier and more convenient (I think there may be some jurisdictions where a monthly use-tax payment is required, which would be a really annoying amount of paper work. I don't have that nuisance in my jurisdiction, but it is still a nuisance to remember to record every Internet purchase on which sales tax has not been charged), or to abolish use tax.