Will Children's Literature Make The Jump Form Print To Ebook Format?

[wraylewis]

When I worked at the Apple store, many many parents created iTunes accounts for their kids with gift cards. Once the account was set up, the kids could buy what they wanted, while the parents knew that their monetary exposure was set, and had to be renewed by them (or grandparents, aunts, uncles, eeven the kids themselves if they had an allowance or odd jobs)

As to content issues - well it seems everyone but the parents has a problem with Apple's content restrictions ;}

BTW, haven't worked there for a year.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by wraylewis

When I worked at the Apple store, many many parents created iTunes accounts for their kids with gift cards.

iTunes TOS says,
This iTunes Service is available for individuals aged 13 years or older. If you are 13 or older but under the age of 18, you should review this Agreement with your parent or guardian to make sure that you and your parent or guardian understand it. (Interestingly, doesn't say that the parents have to agree to the terms. It doesn't even say that the parents *must* be told. So Apple is willing to do business with people who can't be held financially responsible for their actions?)

It also says:

Your use of the Services includes the ability to enter into agreements and/or to make transactions electronically.

Not sure I understand the "or" there... what, people can use the service if they can make electronic transactions but not legally enter agreements?

I tried checking the TOS for iBooks specifically. You can't even get the TOS without downloading & installing the iTunes software. (Can't do that at work.) They don't want non-customers to know what their rules are.

iTunes works on pretty much any computer. iBooks, however, are only available on portable devices. So: A ~$400-600 tablet, a phone that requires a contract children can't enter, or possibly an iPod Touch.

The point is not, "kids can't ever buy ebooks!" It's that kids can't easily & simply buy ebooks they way they can pbooks; only kids from wealthy families have access to them, or kids who are tech-savvy enough to cope with installing multiple types of software and navigating several sites. While the devices have gotten cheap enough to be available to almost anyone, the set of restrictions on use and payment will keep ebooks from being the resource for geeky kids that the library was for a lot of us--and with many libraries shutting down, this is a problem.

Unless the internet as a whole figures out how to let the majority of teenagers participate economically, ebooks-for-kids will be toys-on-parents'-tablets, not their window into self-directed education and entertainment.

(They can, of course, pirate the books. Learning to pirate is no harder than learning to download legit books--and has less barriers to them; they're not asked for a credit card number. Of course, convincing them to start buying after several years of pirating is difficult.)

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

...their window into self-directed education and entertainment.

You mean like A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer?

[wraylewis]

Re my experience at Apple:

Usually the kids (as young as 6 or 7) were more tech savvy than their parents. Most kids learn much more from older kids and peers than from their parents.

As a practical matter, quite a few kids younger than 13 were using the service, and I am not aware of Apple actively trying to stop them.

Further, iTunes gift cards work for books, music, apps, video and games - so these kids have great incentives to know how to work the system.

Not all of my customers were wealthy. I had many many parents come in to buy iPhones, iPads and iPod touches (can also read books) for their children who used cash and were obviously not affluent.

Finally, the is a healthy market for quite capable used IOS devices that can do everything a new one will do at greatly reduced prices. In fact, when I update I tend to give my old devices away to local kids (with their parents' permission).

I agree that the current ebook situation for kids is not what it should be. My point is that it is happening now, and it will get better.

Given that anyone can download epub and mobi readers, and that there are scads of free books available in both formats, any kid who wants to read ebooks can.

I think your biggest problem is that, under the current situation, they can't buy OUR books easily. ;}

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by 5thWiggle

I installed an app locker on the Voxes (Voxi???)

If you are regarding "Vox" as a Latin word (it is, of course, the Latin word for "voice"), the Latin plural is "Voces".

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you are regarding "Vox" as a Latin word (it is, of course, the Latin word for "voice"), the Latin plural is "Voces".

I'm not sure it qualifies as a Latin word in this case (as it is being used as a product name or trademark), but I love the idea of going into an electronics store and asking an underpaid teenage clerk how many "Kobo Voces" they have in stock.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by 5thWiggle

I'm not sure it qualifies as a Latin word in this case (as it is being used as a product name or trademark), but I love the idea of going into an electronics store and asking an underpaid teenage clerk how many "Kobo Voces" they have in stock.

Note, by the way, that it's a hard "c" - you pronounce it "Vok-ez" (although the Latin purist would probably prefer "Wok-ez").

[ApK]

It's not pronounced "Voe'-Chay?" Darn...sounds so cultured and exotic that way.

[5thWiggle]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Note, by the way, that it's a hard "c" - you pronounce it "Vok-ez" (although the Latin purist would probably prefer "Wok-ez").

Bang goes another illusion.

Originally Posted by ApK

It's not pronounced "Voe'-Chay?" Darn...sounds so cultured and exotic that way.

My thoughts exactly. Not surprising, as the only Latin I learned in school was Pig Latin. Damn you, Canadian Public School System!

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ApK

It's not pronounced "Voe'-Chay?" Darn...sounds so cultured and exotic that way.

Not in classical Latin, I'm afraid. It would be something like that in Medieval Church Latin - or in Italian. The letter "c" is always hard in classical Latin.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by wraylewis

As a practical matter, quite a few kids younger than 13 were using the service, and I am not aware of Apple actively trying to stop them.

So, is it reasonable to believe Apple would also not try to stop them if they decided to crack the DRM on what they got, and shared it? Because that, too, is forbidden by the TOS; why should kids believe one part of the TOS is more important than the other?

If there's a system whereby people are actively encouraged to violate some parts of the TOS--parents encouraged to buy devices & services for kids obviously too young according to the rules--why would anyone feel compelled to obey the rest of those rules?

I'm perfectly aware that kids have *non-legit* access to ebooks right now, and plenty of it. But if they have to break the TOS of the sales sites to get those books, how is that less immoral than downloading the books from the darknet? Is there a nice explanation somewhere, that says "it's okay to break THESE rules but not THOSE rules because...?"

I maintain that commercial ebooks-for-children won't take off the way they have for adults until they can fully legitimately buy them for themselves... and possibly not until they can legitimately share those books with friends, somehow. Reading, for most kids, is one way they connect with each other. Especially geeky bibliophiles. And kids' income is limited; if they have to buy full-price every ebook they read... they'll read a lot of freebies and indie books, and publishers will miss out on a lot of word-of-mouth promotion.

As long as children's ebooks have to go through a parental filter, they'll be tied, in the child's mind, to being dependent; something for "little kids" that older ones step away from as they find their own interests.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

As long as children's ebooks have to go through a parental filter, they'll be tied, in the child's mind, to being dependent; something for "little kids" that older ones step away from as they find their own interests.

Children's EVERYTHING is supposed to go through a parental filter. Children ARE dependent. That's pretty much the definition of the parent/child relationship, and the parent's main job.

The differences are in what is filtered and how that filtering is applied.

ApK

[NickyWithNook]

It turns out, I've learened, a lot of my friends got their kids e-readers for Christmas. Mainly Kindle Fires. I think it's starting to become a lot more common.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by ApK

Children's EVERYTHING is supposed to go through a parental filter. Children ARE dependent. That's pretty much the definition of the parent/child relationship, and the parent's main job.

The differences are in what is filtered and how that filtering is applied.

As they become teenagers, less and less of their activities go through the parental filter. They choose their own clothes. They choose their own meals. They make friends with people who match their interests. All of these are subject to some level of parental review, but the child knows that, eventually, s/he'll be making these decisions entirely alone.

If "ebooks" remain something that requires direct parental intervention every time (to authorize credit card payments), it'll be something they think of as childish. If they have to choose between "parental intervention and/or review version" from the legit stores, and "autonomous choice version" from the torrent sites... they may well pick the torrents.

And if their parents have encouraged them to violate the TOS for years anyway, they may not see anything at all wrong with that.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

As they become teenagers, less and less of their activities go through the parental filter.

Indeed. When I saw "children's literature" in the title, I wasn't thinking teenagers or the broader "YA" category. I admit I didn't read the whole thread, so I may have missed the teenager connection.

And if their parents have encouraged them to violate the TOS for years anyway, they may not see anything at all wrong with that.

I appreciate that and I agree in theory, but in practice, young children will not be reading the TOS themselves, and by the time they are old enough to find, read and understand it, it would be nice if they were raised to have developed the moral compass* that will show them difference between an arbitrary age rule that was bent by parental authority with good and just intent, and a violation of rules that amount to stealing or cheating, or injuring others for personal gain.

As a wise man said "There can be no justice when laws are absolute."

ApK

*Actually, it's this 5-11 yr old period, where hopefully the parental filtering will help shape the choices the teenager will make...we need to exert the most influence while we can, before friends and other independent contacts have their shot at them.